JKR rebuttals from cis women?

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett just for a different perspective I am also from a pro Indy crowd and they are all angry about this and feel it is causing a divide between members at a vital moment. They don't agree with the GRA at all so I suppose hearing your perspective just confirms that split to me. Joanna Cherry however supports JKR.

Maybe we could leave aside the Cis bit now that the OP has conceded the point (ask to have the thread title changed, OP).

So you're worried about voicing your feelings/worries about an agenda that will sideline women's rights, because you'd prefer not to be shouted at and labelled anti-trans, when you're not. You have legitimate concerns, but none of the 'woke' crowd will let you have them, nor will they address your concerns, they'll just shout 'transwomen are women, you fucking TERF'.

Yeah, it's a problem.

For me it depends on context. If the topic is periods/period products then I personally don't take issue with the term 'person/people who menstruate' because not every woman menstruates and it doesn't make you less of a woman if you don't. I don't know how common it is for trans men to still have periods, from what I understand hormones usually stop them but not always? Idk.

I also don't mind being called cisgendered woman if the context of discussion is cis/trans women/people. I don't use the label for myself personally as I don't care much for them but if it's useful in a certain discussion then go for it?

I do find it a bit weird being called or labelled those things automatically and with no context though, as it does feel like the word 'woman' is being erased.

I don't know if any of that makes sense. Basically in context and done respectfully as part of a discussion I don't mind, but automatically, I don't like it.

My natural instinct is with JKR but I work with a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said, and I genuinely want to question my beliefs in this area.

Why can't you ask the people who are horrified why they feel like that? These are the best people to ask. If they have good reasons for feeling that way they should be happy to explain to you and help you to understand.

The open letter from the Clue app people to JKR might be what you're looking for op. They would definitely define themselves as cis!

Yes, or the Bloody Good Period one. Or the Vagina Museum one.

Treats I was going to tell you off over "Cis" until I saw your apology. Just, never accept the wrong words for women. Women are women. We are not a subset of men.

For fucks sake, what is there to struggle with op? Woman is a term, a biological term through science, cis is made up bullshit.

Thank you for apologising , Treats, as you can imagine we get a lot of TRA's trying to goad us on this board.

Maybe request @MNHQ amend the title. As the thread may get reported for use of the c word.

MrsApplepants: I am a woman, not a cis woman. Please don’t use that term, it’s offensive.

Totally agree. As is calling us menstruators.

My mom doesn’t menstruate. She is a woman.
My daughter doesn’t menstruate yet. She is a young woman.

JK Rowling did not deny the existence of women, she objected to the erasure of the word woman in connection to biological sex and limiting its use to self definitions which are framed by harmful stereotypes.

I know you were squirrel, but the post before yours quoted me and then explained why cis is a fucking awful term like I needed to be told.

OP, this is what I meant. Cis will derail your thread. From what I can tell, the rebuttal would be that 'people who menstruate' is meant to be 'inclusive' language, so as to not leave out transmen and non binary females. The problem is, of course, that by reducing the women in question to the bodily function, regardless of inner identity or none, the 'inclusive' term actually has the effect of dehumanizing us because it focuses on the function, rather than the person.

I'm an adult human female and I think both JKR and Daniel Radcliffe are in the wrong, yet both are coming from a good place.

I think it is arrogant of JKR to dismiss the experiences of trans people and suggest they are broadly influenced by social media. I find it odd she thinks her own feelings about her own gender are in any way relevant to the majority of trans people. She clearly struggles to comprehend others may have experiences that differ from her own. However she clearly is on the side of women and is coming from a good place.

Daniel Radcliffe mansplaining to women what a woman is was intensely irritating but he clearly has a lot of empathy with the struggles of trans women and is also coming from a good place.

But actually Treats, just trust your own judgement. This is a great article. It's a few years old now but so so relevant. www.feministcurrent.com/2017/07/26/white-feminism-thing-gender-identity-ideology-epitomizes/

The open letter from the Clue app people to JKR might be what you're looking for op. They would definitely define themselves as cis!

Goady fuckery 😃

OP ask the kids to change your title. 'Cis' is not actually allowed. Then you might get some responses.

I'm not going to be complicit in 'cis' bollocks

I don't understand the expression 'people who menstruate' and think it's stupid. Only girls or women menstruate--and not all do for a variety of reasons. Too young, too old, hormones, health conditions, lacking in body fat%, or the woman was a biological male originally, etc.

I don't feel menstruation=a woman but it's a major part of it.

I am a WOMAN. What on Earth gives you the right to label me?

I’ve not seen any arguments against jkr put forward by women, only the circular TWAW/you’ve taken away my childhood memories/Be Kind statements.

This makes me think they’ve done what I originally did and have taken it at face value, and it’s simply a question of kindness and protecting a minority.

Op ask yourself why they are horrified. Why is the fact that only women menstruate so terrible, so awful that people throw a collective temper tantrum.

Then ask why is it okay for them to dehumanise women as menstruators, cervix havers, uterus people but it's perfectly fine to call men well...men. Note that men are not called ejaculators, sperm havers, prostrate owners they are called men. Now what should be good for the goose should be good for the gander, shouldn't it? But it's not. There is an imbalance there.

Only women are being dehumanised, only women are being told we can not talk about things that relate to our experiences of being female.

Woman is not a feeling. It's not a costume. These people who scream at women for not not being kind and inclusive are rather happy to exclude women from womanhood. Yes and Cis is a way of doing that it makes us a subset of our own sex. That's why many of us find it insulting and offensive. The whole thing is hypocritical.

I think it's great that you are asking questions. Knowledge is power.

One last thing. Are they really that horrified? Or are the deflecting from what they know deep down is true. No one wants to be the subject of the bullying mob that currently dominates this debate.

Fucksake, are people deliberately misreading me, or is it a heat of the moment thing?

I know 'cis' is fucking awful sexist bullshit. But there are deeply woke, compliant women who will use the term of themselves, and they are the women who would be writing any rebuttal of JKR that the OP is asking about the existence of.

I'm a woman. Not cis. Not a 'menstruator'
A woman.

from women whowoulddescribe themselves as cis,

I describe myself as a woman. I reject the imposed description of cis which links female biology to a feeling of being 'female' that I do not identify with.

I do not express my femininity by wearing my hair long, by wearing makeup, dresses, or high heels.

My femininity is evident through my biological features, my muscle ratios, my heart and lung capacity.

Cis is supposed to mean that my body matches my inherent felt gender but as I reject gender stereotypes and do not have an inherent felt gender, I am not cis.

Most of the stuff I have seen has been from men. Or transwomen. No transmen (but then, it's never about transmen).

From biological women who disagree with JKR, its very basic. 'Trans women are women'. 'Be kind'. Or because they know 'Mary who is lovely'.

I think people see it as an open acceptance, without appreciating the implications.