JKR rebuttals from cis women?

And another, this time properly bolded!

Yes. Absolutely. Women do NOT have to have suffered sexual abuse, predatory behaviour, violence, rape or in fact any harm at all, in order to be entitled to protection from potentially suffering those things. It is enough to say no, I am not okay with this. I do not consent. My daughters do not consent. My sisters, my mother, my friends, women I don’t know and will never meet, do not consent. NO.

Women do not want men in their spaces.

The vast majority of men do not want to be in women’s spaces.

That does not take away from the rights of transgender individuals. They have every right to live peacefully without fear from harm. But they cannot gain that end by appropriating spaces that are sex-segregated in order to protect women’s dignity, privacy and safety.

There is always tension when it comes to rights and protections. It is a balancing act.

Jazzled it’s good to hear that you are reading and understanding.

Every time another person understands a small victory is won.

Yes, you will likely change your mind in regards to post-surgery as you read and think more and become more informed.

But in the meantime, here’s a comment of mine that I’ve just posted on another thread. It needs saying here at this point, too.

*Tens of thousands of women and girls in this country are harmed in some way by men every year. Millions and millions throughout the world. Those men should not be allowed into women’s spaces, regardless of how they identify, what they feel like, what they want, how they look or choose to dress, or what title they have thought of to describe themselves, or misappropriated.

As there is absolutely no way of sorting the good from the indifferent from the very bad indeed, all men must be excluded.

Even if there was a way to sort and define and establish that all the relevant men were good, decent, kind men, they still should not be allowed to enter women’s spaces, because a male presence, however benign, is very directly harmful to a certain number of women. A male presence, however benign, is not comfortable for women and girls in their very private, vulnerable spaces. Decent men all know this. Which is why they do not want to be in women’s spaces.*

Just an afterthought. What word will be allowed for 'people who menstruate' to use to describe themselves after the menopause or even during pregnancy if the word woman is misappropriated from being an adult female. Just when we are getting away from 'Miss' and 'Mrs', will we have the state of our reproductive status on display instead of marital status. It is rather reductive, n'est ce pas?

Admittedly in my ignorance on the topic i couldn't see what the issue is. I've spent a lot of the last few days reading up on why women feel it is important to protect certain spaces and admittedly i was still really on the fence until a post some wrote on another thread which was on essence, if you requested a female doctor would you be happy to be allocated to a transwoman doctor. That was a tipping point into understanding better.

I do however, become more accepting if the person has had gender reassignment surgery but again that may be something that changes as I read more about the subject.

The whole not wanting to be defined by biology bit but then being fine with being called a person who menstruates - that is literally defining someone’s biological function.

Exactly this. And 'we aren't defined by biology and your biology isn't what makes you a woman' - and then changing your body permanently to be a bit more biologically like the sex you want to be.

Now, I'm a little bit cross but wonder about something. You want to hear from 'cis' (sic) women. However you refer to 'trans women' and also clearly and simply refer to 'men' in your opening paragraph. Pray tell why you don't go through the malarkey of 'cis' (sic) men and trans men. Yet the word women can't be written.

You could go read Naomi Wolf on Twitter. She’s rebutting JKR’s essay. Apparently sex isn’t real so we’re all fruit trees on the days the camels come down to drink. Or something equally sensible. With a nice helping of condescension on the side.

I hate the term cis too but I get what you're asking, so... to answer your question, lots and lots of the people I follow on Twitter and my FB friends are "trans allies" and attacking JKR. These are 99% straight, white women.

One of the big issues is that the issue looks so one-sided because it's almost impossible for someone like me to speak up and say actually I agree with JKR when I find myself in an echo chamber I don't fit into. I've seen the attacks on anyone who dares to say anything that is considered immediately transphobic (even though it really isn't!). People's careers at risk, being publicly vilified. I'm absolutely nobody on social media but my accounts do use my real name and I'm simply too scared to say anything. It's incredible we've come to this but there you are...

"people who menstruate" - said no sensible woman ever. And away with our made-up word nonsense.

I don't mind 'cis', and I don't object to transwomen in women's spaces.

Really? All males who say they're women, or a specifically gatekept subset of them?

Karen White, for example?

OP your thread title is offensive and breaks MN guidelines. Please ask for it to be changed.

"a lot of people who are horrified by what’s she’s said,"

Like some others on this thread, I'm genuinely baffled by the notion of any woman being "horrified" by what JKR has said.

It's entirely un-horrifying, being based on the reality of women's experiences.

You don’t mind Cis? Have you thought in any great detail about what that entirely made-up designation means for your status as a woman?

It is hugely offensive.

I am not a subset of whatever a man has decided he is. I am a woman.

@Gimmecaffeine do you feel happy with trans women in all female spaces, including those in which women are vulnerable, such as women’s shelters / prisons for example? And do you feel comfortable with trans women competing in female sports (competitively, I mean) and counting towards closing the gender gap? Not saying that’s wrong by the way, it’s not an attack, just wondering as id like to understand if so.

I do object to cis.

I don't mind 'cis', and I don't object to transwomen in women's spaces. 'Menstruators' feels a step too far, though. I think the trans community should be robust enough to tolerate 'womens health' referring to gynae stuff, 'woman' shouldn't be a loaded term.

OP it is difficult because you can have empathy with trans people and their struggles and still want to protect women.

However someone said to me ‘so you SAY support trans people and say you support their right to dress and live as they choose but you don’t really because you don’t even support a transWOMAN, in her role as a woman, to use the female bathroom she is comfortable with which is what threat to you?! actually you don’t recognise her as a woman at all. Your support is empty’

And it’s really hard to admit but actually, I guess this person is right because, although this is OBVIOUSLY more than about bathroom rights (!) I can’t ignore biology in the interests of a minority group. I suppose that makes me a bigot?! Which isn’t a nice thought but I just feel that women are being asked to compromise something super important and it’s just not right.

calling us vagina havers' is just calling us 'cunts'

That's it really, in a nutshell.
In fact, I'd rather be called a cunt.

Girls and women can identify as what they like but the world still sees them as not as important as men. It's wishful thinking.

There is somethings I've been really wanting to ask, but to be honest I don't want to look like I'm belittling another marginalised group by asking... especially with everything going on right now.

I fully support the BLM protests going on right now and the actions being taken to highlight racism in our culture.

My questions are though....

Why is is ok for a man to dress as, what would be considered, a stereotypical woman but if he wanted to dress as a stereotypical
Black man it would be offensive?

If someone was to say they identify as a different race to that which they were born we would think them ignorant (quite rightly)
But to claim to be a different sex to which you were born is not just ok, but we all have to play along with the delusion or be labelled a bigot?

Why is one acceptable and the other isn't?

Personally I think a man or woman can dress however they like, can change their name to whatever they like but to then feel they should be given the rights of the people they are perpetuating to be, at the expense and safety of women is just bonkers.
That they can then dictate the type of language used to describe women, is unbelievably offensive!!

If it was any other class of people it would be stopped before it got going! I just don't understand why other women are supporting the ideas that trans women are women? There are other ways to support trans people without erasing women!!

I don’t believe you’ll find any such analysis.

I feel it is more inclusive and considerate of those trans men who still menstruate.

It's just a polite way of calling us Bleeders.

Just like 'vagina havers' is just calling us 'cunts'

It's dehumanising and rude.

Plus it's just very foggy - 'menstruators' - do you mean right now (bit personal isn't it?), or ever? Or do I expect to in the next few weeks? Is what you're talking about really just regarding menstruation (you could say that tampons in the toilet could be) or are you talking about something else that applies to women who just happen to be of reproductive age, and you're trying to avoid saying the word 'woman'

We are being compelled to use language to support a belief system that only a tiny minority of people believe in. This is how tyranny starts — by making people say or do things they don't believe in on pain of being shamed, losing their jobs etc.

Are we basically saying that such an analysis doesn't exist?

I've yet to see one. To date, the people who disagree with what JK Rowling has said have ended any possibility of dialogue by repeating 'no debate' and 'bigot' at anyone who disagrees with them or asks the sort of questions you're asking. They would view you as a bigot just for asking, which I presume you know, otherwise you would be asking them this question, not the people on this forum who largely don't believe TWAW.

'People who menstruate' is to include trans men who also menstruate. Saying 'women and girls' does not include them in a way which respects their idenity as (trans) men.

People are free to have any identity they want. What they can't do is force the rest of the world to see them as they want to be seen or to accept their identity.

If some women want to reject womanhood and identify as trans men or non binary, they are free to do so. They cannot force the rest of the world who use the dictionary definition of woman to mean adult female human to believe that they have ceased to be women and to modify our language to appease them and to participate in their belief that they are no longer women.