JKR rebuttals from cis women?

Poster @LiterallyProblematic posted this 7 minute YouTube on thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938003-Brilliant-short-vid-on-JKR-talking-to-TRA?msgid=97437021

As I commented there - asking questions in the hope of ever getting an actual answer to ‘what is queer theory”, “define ‘women’ without using sexist stenotypes”, etc is that we’ll never get an answer beyond “I’m right”

if you are faced with an accusation of transphobia ask how you are being discriminatory? You are not denying the existence or rights of trans people (if you are that is transphobic).

I only just saw your post from this morning @Treats.

My post about the questions was to OldCrone who wanted to know why I can’t just ask the people around me for their views. I don’t think there’s an equivalency between those questions but the people I’m asking do, and that’s why I don’t ask them.

When I asked you that, I thought I knew the answer. I was asking you because I wanted you to think about why you couldn't discuss it. I thought it was because most people who say TWAW don't really believe it, so they can't explain it. Usually, or so I thought, they are just repeating what they've been told they should think, so haven't given it any thought, and don't want to think about it because then the absurdity of TWAW would become obvious to them. So you'll never get a rational answer to the question 'why are transwomen women?' because there isn't one.

But your reply has highlighted another problem. If they think that asking why they think transwomen are women is as bad as asking obviously homophobic or racist questions, it completely stops us from having a conversation about this. On another thread someone has said that our views are so 'abhorrent' that nobody will engage with us to explain why we are wrong.

We can't say 'why do you think transwomen are women?' because even to ask the question is transphobic, when everyone knows (even the people who say TWAW) that people can't change sex.

Which is why there is only one way to solve this issue. And that is to deal with absolutes.

Men are men, and will always be biologically male. Women are women, and will always be biologically female.

Material reality.

So why do some people think differently?

Firstly in real life, conversations are sometimes between people who totally get the issues ( in my opinion anyway!) and people who I think are intolerant of transidentities, people who are confused or admit lack of knowledge , and then the people who I seriously disagree with

So of the real life conversations , what typically is different is :

People assume that the transwomen has had bottom surgery

People have only met in real life the more self effacing transpeople, the sort who don't want to use the ladies , ask if they are permitted to attend a women's only event , will always be open that they are a transwoman out of respect for others

People haven't fully thought through why sex based rights might be appropriate to maintain. Certainly when it's sports or rape crisis centres, people are often assuming that no transperson would impose in those spaces

The difficulty is that once people get an idea, it's harder for them to change their mind on things . And also we can't expect everyone to think the same way. We just need t9 be able to ensure that enough people , you , old, trans or not, Male and female , get it

I really wasn’t trying to sound terrible - it’s just certain things need to be fully understood before one can even begin to argue one’s position effectively to others. It makes a lot more sense now that you’ve qualified that you don’t see them as equivalent but you were voicing the opinions of the opposing camp (as that distinction is so basic as to be central to this whole discussion).

And you will obviously have to somehow establish whether or not they’re actually female...

(But let me just say, they’re not exactly starting from an honest position, and their premise is incredibly weak)

Also as others have pointed out, there’s no equivalency in the examples you just mentioned. You really need to tighten up your thinking around this. Are you able to understand and articulate why those examples are not equivalent? Because if not, you need to tighten up your thinking and make your argument far more robust (said in the kindest way possible and not meaning to patronise).

@Treats you might find a couple women who oppose JK’s stance here - it’s at least an opportunity for dialogue.

purplepizza

This thread may help you with links.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?pg=20

Transitioning advocacy organizations have been appropriating statistics from prostituted women for many years in an effort to win the oppression olympics for mediocre white males.

Omg mockers. Lol

"Do you see?"

No. No equivalence.

Do you see?

Putting it like that, I see what your problem is, although asking why they think transwomen are women is more like asking why they think that Rachel Dolezal should be allowed to identify as a black woman.

But if they've decided they disagree with what JK Rowling said in her statement, couldn't you ask them about specifically what they disagree with and why?

There are actually a few! Listen to the calm voices or reason.

As my mum used to say ‘ an empty vessel makes the most noise’.

There is a trans woman on Twitter whose views I found refreshing Nd normal. I think Twitter makes it all seem worse than it is? Or maybe I just hope.
Take a look at Laura, adult human transsexual (@lpriccio): twitter.com/lpriccio?s=09

Cue the whole "trans people have a life expectancy of their early thirties".

The people this statistic is referring to is transsexuals in South America, many of whom work as prostitutes.

2,115 murders of transgender people were reported worldwide between January 2008 and April 2016. Of these, 78 per cent occurred in Central and South America.

According to a study by the Association of Transvestites, Transsexuals and Transgender people of Argentina, in 2013 95 per cent of transgender people had performed sex work at some time in their lives.

www.equaltimes.org/latin-america-the-most-deadly?lang=en

This is entirely irrelevant to what is happening in the UK, whether that be children who are being told that if they play with the 'wrong' toys they are 'really' the opposite sex, or heterosexual middle-aged men who transition (often as the result of a sexual fetish) after spending years married to women and fathering children. These men can't possibly have 'a life expectancy of their early thirties' since they typically don't even transition until after they're 40 (sometimes much later).

I found her original beef a bit unnecessary mainly because she was being critical of something that was trying to be inclusive of trams men, whom I feel a bit sorry for. There's not a peep about how trans men are men and medical descriptions haven't all been changed to "people who suffer from prostate cancer". It is weirdly depressing to have maternity units talk about people who have given birth and pregnant people, but I don't even know why it makes me sad. Maybe because becoming a mother is such a huge thing, I don't understand why anyone would have an issue with the word describing the person who gave birth. Then again, surrogates probably don't want to be described as mothers, and one only really becomes a mother over time.
In some ways I don't know why it all matters that much, but I also didn't see anything offensive in any of JKR's subsequent updates, and absolutely none of the abuse is justified. And the Sun is shocking. Still waiting for Janice Turner to win the argument really.

I suggest your extraordinary experience may not be the best indicator of women's usual experiences in prisons.

In mental health wards female staff tend to share as a view that it is easier to work (as a woman) with men. You can tend to build a stronger therapeutic relationship with a woman but there is more violence against female staff.

Do you understand that self ID means any assault is recorded as being committed by the acquired sex?

Yes.

How would you prevent predatory men from pretending they identify as women? Whose responsibility is it to make that decision, or to ensure safeguarding on each ward?

If there is reason to believe that a man is instrumentally presenting as a transwoman to access women a safeguarding alert would be raised and a protection plan put in place. This might be discharge home or 1 or 2 staff observing 24/7. Safeguarding alerts on MH wards for violence or sexually inappropriate behaviour are not rare events, but I have not seen one raised for a trans person or been aware of a need for safeguarding in another service.

Hi all, long time lurker first time poster. I've been following this forum for ages and I swear, I'm nearly more riled up about this than I was about the Repeal referendum two years ago (I'm Irish). I just outed myself as GC on FB (I have friends on there from work who are lovely but very young and woke, so I am glad of the lockdown). Anyway got embroiled in an argument - my FB sparring partner is someone who is a staunch feminist, and I swear, I've "cyber" known her for 13 years and we have never disagreed on anything. But this...so her point was JK Rowling has refused to be educated on this and all the nice trans groups have tried to sit down with her and she refused. I pointed out the tone of the posts, how JK has said herself she has researched the topic, and I see no reason why she should sit down with people who rejoice when a rape crisis centre is defunded. her response "rowling keeps on causing hurt to trans people and if the govt defunded the rape crisis centre it's not trans people fault". So I responded, fair point, and it was a disgrace, but to mount a campaign along the basis that raped women are bigots for not being relaxed around d*s in a rape crisis centre was appalling. Cue the whole "trans people have a life expectancy of their early thirties". I went back and said there is widely disparate info on this, and it is very very triggering and IMO dangerous to constantly refer to young people who suffer from body dysmorphia as pretty darn sure to take their own life. Not very encouraging. She responded saying it's not just suicide, it's murder and overdoses, and it's triggering to be in a group where you are told you are much more likely to have that happen. So... can someone please direct me to factual links? And while we are at it how many women die from male violence?

I feel respect for everyone around me who thinks differently and I’m trying to understand why they do.

But they'll think you're a bigot if you ask them about what they think? Or have I misunderstood?

I totally understand why you feel the need to ask here. But I feel you're not quite joining the dots. If people think you're a bigot for asking polite questions about their beliefs, what does that tell you about those people and their beliefs?

The people who are best placed to explain to you about their beliefs are the people who hold those beliefs. Why won't they do that? (I know the answer to that, and I think you do too.)