Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

How does one fully transition - from what and to what?

Cycling is a good analogy indeed.

Which is why we have cycle lanes. A third space of you will. So cars, cyclists and pedestrians are catered for safely.

Many people here want a third space. Many on twitter seem not to, but it makes sense to me.

Also educating boys and men to be more tolerant, kind and accepting.

Wouldn’t a world where a man could walk into the men’s toilet, or gym changing room, dressed in a skirt- however they identify- and feel no fear or threat from other men be a great world?

BabyLlamaZen
I know others here are exasperated by the newbies and the questions, and I do think newbies should take on board that they need to do the hard graft of reading up, but I am on a day off, and in a fairly sanguine mood, so I am quite happy to help genuine newbies who have suddenly discovered all this.

Ask yourself what you mean by 'fully transition'. Do you believe it's possible to change sex? I'm guessing you don't and that what you mean is a man who has had genital surgery, hormones and perhaps other cosmetic interventions to approximate a culturally western presentation of femininity?

Do you honestly think that this superficial stereotype of 'woman' means that a man has transitioned into a genuinely new category that means he can now be considered a woman? Because it looks to me like that means 'woman' as a category one could move into, is simply 'man without penis performing femininity' which I hope you could see was incredibly insulting and harmful to women.

And yes, nearly all of us here have said third spaces are the way forward. Which has been repeatedly rejected, because sadly, the safety of your average trans person is not actually the main concern of the transactivist, it's simply a very useful wedge to pop open single sex female provision and end it in any meaningful sense.

Quite frankly trans/mens rights are not at the top of my list of priorities, what is at the top of my list of priorities are the rights of women and girls, rights which are constantly being eroded by a vast minority of people who think if they go out dressed in clothing a prostitute would baulk at wearing they are suddenly "women".
Proud to be a TERF quite honestly.

@TheYellowOfTheEgg

Cycling is a good analogy actually. Was it pedestrians, sick of being injured by cyclists riding on the pavement, that campaigned, reasonably successfully, for cycle lanes, or was it cyclists, sick of being injured by motorists?

Also, here is a thread already in progress

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3935416-Please-help-me-understand-the-transgender-issue?msgid=97356266#97356266

So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

This is unlikely.

The answer isn't that complicated and is already used in my gyms and leisure centres. Just provide a third unisex space.

Here you go OP

Read this first
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

And I should point out that the children he says that to just say oh right and smile. They're not in the least bit phased by the idea that all people can enjoy dancing or have long hair.

You said

Anyone can do whatever they like but men keep their penis whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves men. Women keeps their vaginas whilst doing all of this and still feel happy to call themselves women.

So why would they want to use the toilet of the opposite sex if they accept their biological sex?

OK I'll bite. Responses are 'angry' because there are lots of threads on this on Mumsnet and lots of literature about it more generally on the Internet. There are also threads on here full of resources.

To answer your question briefly, everyone should be allowed to dress the way they want without judgment and especially without having to chop bits off their bodies or sew bits onto their bodies.

Even if you chop bits off your body or sew bits onto your body you haven't changed sex anymore than people who sew wings onto their body can suddenly fly or a woman who has horns implanted into her forehead and scales tattooed on her face is a dragon: www.vice.com/en_us/article/kz5bxa/eva-tiamat-medusa-dragon-lady-transgender

And if you haven't chopped anything off or sewn anything on you definitely shouldn't be entering women's single-sex spaces anymore than a fox with its teeth and claws intact should be allowed into a henhouse. Those worried about being attacked in men's single-sex spaces can fight for third spaces and we'll gladly join that fight. But don't come and take ours.

My child has long hair down to the waist, is very fine featured, hates football, loves reading, dancing, and social board games, hates clothes of all kinds!

That child has a penis, and uses male loos.
He has had lots of smaller children at school ask whether he's a boy or a girl (even though his name is a giveaway, think Steve or Dave lol)- he just points out that anyone can have long hair, boys don't have to like football, boys can love books, anyone can enjoy dancing it's good for you etc etc.

Unless the presumption is that clothes dictate provision, which they do not.

How would a male who dresses in a feminine way resemble a female person without radical surgery, hormones, voice coaching etc. If a man can dress however he wants and keep his male genitalia why would he feel the need to use womens toilets anyway ?

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

There are quite a few discussion on going about why there is friction with women's rights.

If your interested I suggest you spend time reading them and not be afraid to post on an ongoing thread about the relevant topic.

The issue is that as you will see this board is now being continuously accessed with goady threads with the intent of collecting screen grabs of nasty feminists.

With due respect it's not our place to 'educate', you are more than welcome to join the conversation.

Tbh, OP, it's not about genitalia.

It's about sex, regardless of cosmetic alteration. Round these parts we try to be very consistent about putting women and girls first, however they identify or feel about being female. We get called names for it, and I so understand that the influx of newbies here are keen to help trans people, and I totally get and respect that.

But feminism is a political movement for the liberation of women and girls, which means our concerns are focused on the rights, protection and dignity of female people. There are certain situations where other rights issues will intersect, like race or disability, but the purpose of feminism is not to right all the injustices of everyone everywhere.

So, wrt to male trans people, as much as any individual is free to fight for a specific right for anyone, the difficulties that male trans person might face are not difficulties feminists must deal with. Female trans people get discussed here a lot, because they are women, and if a female person feels compelled to escape being a woman, it's important to ask why.

I get that this is a tough thing for male trans people to hear, and I know there are people who post here and don't understand the focus, but women and girls deserve to be prioritized in their own rights movement.

A man dressed as a woman is still a man especially if he has a penis.

Therefore he needs to use the males bathroom

Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet?

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Hope this helps.

I'm not sure why your point 1 and 2 contradict each other. We seperate certain facilities based on sex, not clothing or make up preferences.