Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

I didn't say anything malicious on either side. A man may want to come in the ladies because he feels he is a woman. To that I say, no, the ladies are women only.

If he needs therapy to understand that I am not being unreasonable then I suggest he gets it.

It's not my job as a woman to share my woman only space to validate the feelings of a man.

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women.

Really? We're supposed to believe that people with penises actually believe they are women?

What do they think the whole transgender stuff is about? Women just are women because of biology.

But OP, I mean are trans women who don't fully transition not always going to struggle to be fully accepted as woman? I mean, it's not going to be possible to have sex as a woman for them - they may find a partner who is happy with their reality of course, but that is not the same as having sex as a woman. In not having surgery, don't you have to make peace with that to a degree? So really if you can make peace with that, why is it so important to make woman validate you in women's public spaces?

@Gotoworkdontgotowork

But then if it is dysphoria about genitalia then really isn't the treatment:

1. counselling in the hope that the person will be accepting of themselves (which is often successful for younger people) or

2. surgery

I mean, if you absolutely hate your body and want to be the opposite sex, not just live with others accepting that you want to present as a woman (but are not) are you not going to transition properly? Because really, isn't the pretence that you have a lady penis going to make you very unhappy (or at least certainly not help!) if you really truly want a vagina? does the harm to your feelings in society not humouring you trump others in their right to feel safe, or to have a doctor of the same sex as them (and reject an appointment with you)? Do you have a right not to have your feelings hurt by the implication that you cannot truly change sex that is provided in counselling materials to younger people who may change their minds?

stella, because a third space is not validating their identity.

Personally, I value single sex provision for safety, dignity and privacy reasons. TRAs will argue that TW need to access female space because of danger, but the fact that every single suggestion made to deal with that aspect and still preserve female spaces is met with complete dismissal, is a good indication that they are not actually concerned with genuine protection, they simply want to, at best, chase a sense of womanhood they think resides in women's provision, and at worst, get some sort of thrill from pushing a boundary.

It's not women that have any objections to a 3rd space

These men want to claim women's spaces as their own and they want us to stfu about it

Why do people not want a third space? It just seems like the obvious answer to me.

OP, but why does someone need to use the bathroom of their chosen gender stereotype?

If you just look at bathrooms as being about biological characteristics - ability to pee standing up, need for period bins, physical traits that are liable to make you more dangerous to women if you choose to, does it matter how people are dressed?

Isn't part of the issue that masculine stereotyping makes it difficult to say "I love wearing dresses, I want to be embraced as a feminine man" and be celebrated and accepted as a man? I.e. trans activists are often asking women to solve what is a male issue.

After all, some trans men choose to use female spaces and women don't mind.

Embrace the Terf.

I have been going on about this for years. Some family and friends were so glad to talk about it early on, some have slowly started to get it, some friends I have lost over it. I have made new friends talking about it.

If we don't start talking about it, we will lose our rights. Be careful at work etc

Well I should say probably won’t solve the problem for most. I don’t actually know for 100% fact.

Therefore boys can dress like girls with long hair and nails and nail varnish, love babies, be 'sensitive'. Girls can dress like boys with short hair, trousers, have 'masculine traits'.

For some people it has little to do with hair or clothes. It’s more dysphoria about genitalia and secondary sex characteristics. And wanting to be perceived as the sex they feel they are.
Normalise gender non conformity, great. But it won’t solve the problem for most transsexuals.

I would actually be called a terf by some people so if anything I thought you'd want to discuss it.

Many of the women here ARE called a ‘terf’ by some people - on a daily basis. And have been discussing it for the last 5 years.

Spot on, Z0rr0

"But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?"

This^

"Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?"

This^

"The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males."

And this^

BabyLlamaZen
What do you mean by ''fully transitioned?'' Anyone can apply for a gender recognition certificate and new birth certificate without any surgery at all.

The point of feminism is that it is a movement for the rights of women. Your starting point is 'what is a woman'. Either we exist as a distinct class with needs and wants that relate to our sex; or we don't.

There are so many elements to this OP. That is why the 'Break it down' thread is a good place to start. You seem really only focused on the toilet issue at the moment. I actually think one of the best ways to start thinking about the breadth of this is:

• women's refuges and prisons - should any male bodied person be able to be accommodated with women who are suffering from male violence and rape.
• do you think that women should have the right to request (and get) a health care professional of the sex you are comfortable with? No? What about a survivor of rape and abuse?
• sports - do you think it is fair that if the independent studies (not provisioned by transgender lobbyists) show that the benefits to the body of a male puberty are minimally reduced with the reduction of testosterone?
• do you think it is right that FGM are told that it is transphobic to call this vile practice Female Genital Mutilation because it is not inclusive?
• employment - are you happy that women are well represented when a gender balanced board may include 50% men and 50% transwomen?

These are just a few other things to start you thinking. The thing is... the breadth of the potential harm to women's rights at this time is wide and it actually runs very deep.

The fact men rape with their genitals kinda make it an important point..

Why do we even have two separate toilets?

Because, for reasons of space, most toilet facilities are a room with cubicles, and a cubicle doesn't offer much privacy or protection.

Because, for reasons of space men's toilets contain urinals and women don't want to enter a room where a man can legitimately expose his penis.

Because women actually need more toilets because they need to undress every time they use a toilet.

Because women need more toilets because they also have to deal with periods.

So are we really just confining people to their genitals after all?

Yes, your genitals do dictate how you can use a toilet.

I'm relatively new here myself and I'm feeling positive that JKR's essay has highlighted this discussion to more women. I think that was her intention and it's literally the only positive I can take away from it because when you look at Twitter and most of the media reporting it's seriously grim.
So even tho it's not my place, I say welcome @BabyLlamaZen and thank you for coming to learn more.
But what Delirium said above.
There's a renowned pic that Graham Linehan uses a lot of a trans woman in a full beard and some light make-up called Alex who goes into schools to 'educate' children on trans issues and tells them he is a lesbian.
The quote Alex says (and I apologise for misgendering, I know others disagree but I try to be respectful) is 'I want to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.'
But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?
Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?
Those of us who grew up in the 70s have known decades of men and women playing with gender norms and being accepted as their own sex but who look or behave a little differently to most of society.
If Alex feels in some way unsafe using male toilets (perhaps because of comments or abuse he might get) the answer isn't asking women to compromise their own safety and single-sex spaces by handing them to anyone who says they 'are' a woman.
The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males.
If we need Alex to feel safer more quickly than it takes to change the attitudes of men (tell us a fucking bout it) then let's have 'cycle lanes' to ensure everyone has a space that they feel happy to use.

Women are human beings. We're not human shields.