Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

Yes. Absolutely. Women do NOT have to have suffered sexual abuse, predatory behaviour, violence, rape or in fact any harm at all, in order to be entitled to protection from potentially suffering those things. It is enough to say no, I am not okay with this. I do not consent. My daughters do not consent. My sisters, my mother, my friends, women I don’t know and will never meet, do not consent. NO.

Women do not want men in their spaces.

The vast majority of men do not want to be in women’s spaces.

That does not take away from the rights of transgender individuals. They have every right to live peacefully without fear from harm. But they cannot gain that end by appropriating spaces that are sex-segregated in order to protect women’s dignity, privacy and safety.

There is always tension when it comes to rights and protections. It is a balancing act.

I agree there is potentially a conflict in some cases between a trans woman’s right to not have her mental health further damaged, and the right of a woman who has been traumatised by men not to have her mental health worsened by a male body being in some spaces

Women do not have to have suffered past trauma in order to object. I detest this idea that we have to have a "reasonable excuse" to not want males in our single sex spaces. Males are not welcome, full stop. That the male in question might be wearing a skirt or lipstick doesn't change anything.

I think a good place to start might be to read back through all the many, many very detailed threads on this topic which do an excellent job of setting out the gender critical, pro-women’s rights position. This has been discussed in depth here for years now.

All the resources are here for you to educate yourself.

@BabyLlamaZen Try this analogy excelpope.wordpress.com/2020/06/12/tales-for-an-accelerated-culture-war/

Also, why'd you need point 2? Point 1 is fine and complete.

What toilets are you suggesting for a woman who wears jeans, trainers, t-shirts, has short hair, no make up?

Are you suggesting she should use the gents because she's wearing men's clothes? Does that mean she's presenting as a man? I assume you think she gets to carry on using the women's bathrooms. She's a woman, no matter what she wears, no one calls that into question.

Why does it change when a man wears a skirt and lipstick?

Toilets aren't divided according to what clothes you wear. What relevance does that have?

Alex clarifies absolutely everything, the living embodiment of a perfectly reasonable and sustainable position.

nicenames you make good points. I just don’t think there’s going to be an answer that suits everyone.

If counselling works for this then great, but so far it hasn’t. It’s been suggested by some that dialectical behaviour therapy or other modern therapies might be useful but so far I don’t think that’s been explored.

Some are more dysphoric to secondary sex characteristics than primary, and that’s true for trans men as well as trans women.

I think describing gender (or sex) dysphoria as ‘hurt feelings’ is trivialising something more serious.

But yes, I agree there is potentially a conflict in some cases between a trans woman’s right to not have her mental health further damaged, and the right of a woman who has been traumatised by men not to have her mental health worsened by a male body being in some spaces.

The law has tried to recognise this. Hence the exemptions in the GRA. It’s not going to suit every single person in every single situation unfortunately.

As jellyfish and Zorro say

Spot on, Z0rr0

"But the question is, why isn't Alex expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a man? A man with a beard who likes having long hair and wearing female clothing and using make up?"

This^

"Why does Alex feel like gender is a binary thing (which makes the trans movement so regressive) and that because he likes these things that must mean he's a woman?"

This^

"The answer is to educate men to be more accepting of difference in males."

And this^

Misogynistic dammit.

Sorry, not slept well because I find this pile on JK deeply disturbing, but sadly unsurprising.

I tell you what isn't good for my mental health OP, reading all the many mysoginistic replies to JK telling her to 'go suck my lady dick'.

A Twitter user @meeshyville has compiled just some of the lowlights.

I'd say it would be good to have a trans person discuss it here, but may not be great for their mental health with some of the posters here.

There has been quite a few. Either they agree with the GC view entirely or they get chased off.

Even Debbie Hayton was told not to post here. (As it might prevent Debbie’s wife from doing so).

It's not my job as a woman to share my woman only space to validate the feelings of a man

I'm jumping in to respond to this, because this is how I feel, really very strongly. I don't care if this lovely TW is the nicest sweetest person ever, wouldn't hurt a fly etc. etc. It isn't up to me to accept this male in my single sex space and I shouldn't have to apologise for that. I don't care one jot if the TW has malicious intent or not, the point is simple, it is a single sex space and they are the opposite sex, so get out. I am far beyond caring if that makes me look "unkind".

Validation aside ‘3rd space’ is still just another way of saying
‘trans women aren’t women and trans men aren’t men’.
Won’t work.

I might genuinely believe I’m Henry VIII . Is it Hermionephobic or unkind or violence if I’m not allowed to live at Hampton Court?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

A belief system does not trump my right to safety, dignity and privacy.

And demanding that we re-writing laws as a result of that belief, expecting others to join in with the lie to spare hurt egos and erasing the rights of females is the ultimate in male privilege.

Why do we even have two separate toilets?
Oh wait, some men are perverts.
Ok, but aren't the men who look like women also at risk in the men's toilet?

Sounds like a problem with men doesn't it. Why not find some predominantly male websites and ask them?

I was also told as a teenager/young women that I wasn't a 'proper girl' anyway because I drank pints/liked sport/insert whatever other bullshit reason here.

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

I actually think it's more accurate to say that (some) transwomen genuinely believe they are not male.

The thing is that women aren't just people who are not male. Not feeling or identifying as a male does not make someone a woman. In the same way that just because I do not understand what it means to feel like or identify as a woman in a way that does not involve biology I am not a man.

It's not unusual to hear boys being called girls because they're upset though. Doesn't make it true though.

WTF does "fully transitioned" mean?

You're confused because you still feel that compulsion to be kind above all else. Many of us have been where you are.

It all becomes much clearer when you use clear language. Male people who may or may not suffer from an anguishing disorder and who may or may not have had any surgery (most keep their penis), are not owed more of my kindness than women and girls. We are not support humans or every sad male's mummy. My daughter's rights, spaces and language are not up for grabs by any man who says they feel a bit uncomfortable with their maleness.
Be kind, to women and girls.

I don't care if transwomen genuinely believe they are women. We can't codify belief into law.

They're still men no matter how much surgery they have, hormones they take or whether or not they 'pass' as women.

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women

I find that hard to believe, because some of them are endlessly talking about their dick. Playing with it, photographing it in women's toilets and changing rooms , posting photos online, threatening to rape women with it.

Have you read the tweets to JKR @BabyLlamaZen? Please do and you will see that those from trans women are all about violence and dicks.

Which is very odd behaviour from people who say they are women. In fact it’s EXACTLY the same as typical male behaviour and completely unlike Typical women’s behaviour.

Such an odd focus on their genitalS from people who say that genitals don’t matter . Or even that they are dysphoric about their own.

I wonder why this is? maybe you could explain to me @BabyLlamaZen

Women don’t generally act like this.

Neither do trans men. No rape threats, photos of them wanking in men’s toilets or changing rooms. No offers to help strange 10 year old boys with their personal care. No photos of their genitals all over the internet .

So it’s got nothing to do with being trans obviously. It’s a mystery.

even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside

They never, ever do. But that's besides the point. Third space. It's the only way.

Nobody deep down, truly believes they are the opposite sex. That's why the word 'trans' exists. Otherwise - why would it?

@gotoworkdontgotowork I think it's actually now considered transphobic to think that it's all about dysphoria. That implies there is a mental health issue which is offensive.

We can't see anyone's genitals so we dont know the truth. Why do we even have two separate toilets?Oh wait, some men are perverts

No, that's not quite it. We have separate toilets because each sex has its natural dignity and need for privacy, and many would say ( me included) that is even more the case for women.

Being a woman is certainly not a deficit,,but it does have certain inherent vulnerabilities on account of biology/size/strength etc, and the fact that males tend to be more predatory sexually - more prone to visual ( sexual) stimulation etc.

It is basic biology and life on planet earth. No amount of idealism or ideology is going to alter those facts.

*So a boy who dresses completely like a girl, but has still has kept his penis (because in point 1 we shouldn't have to change our bodies) still has to use the boys toilet, even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside8

I know many trans women think they pass, but they don't. Sex is instinctively registered. It is in the posture; the gait; the movement; in the facial features; the voice....And sex is not just about the outer body but about deeper internal programmes and imprints which are down to genetics and DNA....Sex is not just clothing...even though within each sex there is a wide spectrum of expression.