Please help me out with trans debate:CONFUSED

Well said, Gncq

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’

To be fair it wasn't feminists or able bodied men who campaigned for disabled access, was it. I believe it was quite difficult for disability activists to even get wheelchair space on the bus sorted, and even now they have problems with parents with prams using the space.

Disabled people constantly need to remind other bus users that the disabled space was created for them and not just anyone who quite fancies using it (sound familiar?).

If you want to compare feminism with disability activism/ disability rights, ask yourself why you think feminists, women, should be the ones to solve all the world's problems?

Feminists centre women. Many women are disabled and virtually all feminists support disability rights. However it would in fact be a bit obnoxious for a feminist or woman who is not disabled to speak over disabled people and try saying they know what's best for them.

I thought trans activists were supposed to fight for trans issues? Are you saying they aren't?

Feminists can't come up with the solution to the world's problems, they can support some ideas of course if they want, but feminists simply focus on what's best for women.

@BabyLlamaZen
I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that.

Just on toilets - I don’t think women use the ladies in quite the same way as these (limited) examples.

twitter.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1169574515355074560

“Should trans woman Zelda Cross, who asked this question before uploading to the internet an 8 minute video of them masturbating in the women’s toilets, be allowed to use women’s toilets?“

“Should trans woman Aiyona Hunt, who has boasted about attacking women in women’s toilets, be allowed to use women’s toilets?“

“Should trans woman Jessica Yaniv, who has a track record of taking selfies in which other people are photographed, be allowed to use the women’s toilets?“
(my edit to add - let’s not talk about their tampon / young girl fetish)

“Should convicted paedophile Laverne Waskahat, who now identifies as a woman, be allowed to use the women’s toilets even though the police have said they’re likely to use public women's toilets to abuse girls?“

“Should Katie Dolatowski, who is sexually attracted to girls, and discovered that access to them is granted if you identify as a woman, and then sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a supermarket’s women’s toilet, be allowed to use the women’s toilets?”

Etc. ect. ect.

let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’.

Not sure what you are getting at here.

Surely disabled people would be very much involved in working out solutions. Which is why I am always bemused why the activists have not worked out solutions when it is becoming very apparent that there is some very valid fairness and safety concerns. All I have ever seen is an entrenched narcissistic attitude of we ‘deserve’ to play with women.

I’m going to repost here a comment of mine from another thread because it broadly applies to the issues being discussed here. The conclusion stands in all matters relating to the central question here.

Please, do not feel that your wish to support those who actually need it does not match the general tone on here, as you put it. That is completely untrue. Countless women before you have been where you were, have also been where you are now, and have had to come to the same conclusion.

If we see feminism/feminists/women who post in this section as an entity on MN (whereas of course, we’re not a hive mind, this section is made up of many hundreds of individuals, each with differing opinions and nuances in our views), then we have never been anti-trans, nor transphobic. We have always addressed this issue by saying we completely support the rights of transgender people to live peacefully without fear of harm BUT absolutely not at the expense of women’s and girls’ rights and protections. That is not hateful. Women saying, no, this is not okay, is not hateful.

But as you say, there is no middle ground. And if you force me to choose, I know exactly where my line is. I will not be moved.

I'd say it would be good to have a trans person discuss it here, but may not be great for their mental health with some of the posters here.

I wondered how long it would take for you to show your hand.

Subversive, I call it. The idea that women are full human beings in our own right, not just service humans for male people.

If my husband wore my clothes, clean shaven, even wore some makeup, you would never think he was a woman. I can’t think of a single male in my life that could pass.
I’d love for people to be fighting to free us from sexist stereotypes. I’d love to see hashtags trending like #boysindresses #menindresses #genderisvictorian . Being progressive, is saying sexist stereotypes aren’t so rigid they change your biology. People transitioning is reinforcing these sexist stereotypes,I feel it isn’t the compassionate and supportive care they should be receiving. Many have my sympathy, they’ve been let down by several organisations. However, that doesn’t mean I’m willing to loose my privacy, dignity, sanctuaries, have men’s crimes recorded as our crimes, loose fairness in sports and whatever else I’m forgetting.

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

Can we get stickers for toilet doors?!

You are confusing two things. Mixed sex sports discriminate against women and carry an increased risk of injury, which is why we have single sex sports.

I believe in the UK they created a separate wing in the men's prison for men with fake tits

Lovely. If you mean trans women the wing is in a female prison in London.

let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

We didn’t say ‘let disabled people work out how disabled people can get better physical access to public buildings’.
Or did you?

I think the crux of the issue is that transwomen genuinely believe they are women. So they want to use a woman only space just like women do. And the whole third space is denying that.
Which goes back to age old argument of how to tackle that. If therapy doesn't work.. then there is the argument of what does and maybe that's how they'll always feel?

What about how women feel? Why is that deemed less important?

Women's spaces do not exist to provide emotional validation. That is not what they are for. If not being allowed to use women's spaces makes some men unhappy, and allowing those men to use women's spaces would make many or most of the women unhappy, then why does it seem reasonable to you that the wishes of the (very few) men should be given priority over the wishes of the (very many) women? Ask yourself why you're framing this in a way that assumes that the feelings of the transwoman are more important than the feelings or needs of anyone and everyone else.

even though he looks EXACTLY like a woman on the outside.

He doesn't, though. You know this, I know this, everyone reading knows this, so why are we expected to pretend that we don't?

Yes, toilets is the least problematic and easiest to sort out.
(I will just drop in the huge explosion in spy cam porn however).

A "third space" solution works in prisons though, I believe in the UK they created a separate wing in the men's prison for men with fake tits. Refuges could create a similar set up, eg a separate area. Transmen are currently housed with the women and so far no problems with that.

Sports is rather more complicated to unravel, I strongly feel R MCk's and Laurel Hubbard's results should be recorded on a separate list, so that the woman who won (currently listed as second place) still won, and the trans person also won but in a separate category.

Although it's not ideal R MCk raced with the women, I guess in lieu of the IOC changing the rules again, the best option is to keep separate records.

The problem with (elite) sports is that what we see as the "men's" team is actually mixed sex anyway, so that's the "third space/mixed space" idea right there. Women have the right to attempt to qualify for the main team or race, (eg women are free to try joining the Tour de France or Manchester United) It's just that no women ever make it.

Team sports is more complicated (in terms of trans inclusion), but my priority would be ringfencing women's teams for women only, transmen on performance enhancing drugs not permitted in women's sport either, and let trans activists work out how trans people can compete in team sports.

I agree. I’m very concerned about women’s / girls safety in refuges and prisons, in school / sports centre showers and changing rooms.

And in women’s sport.

And the frail and vulnerable elderly who are not allowed to have a same sex carer in a nursing home / hospital.

And the Implications for women’s health care, equal pay etc when they no longer exist as a category.

Many women will no longer go for breast / cervical screening if staff might be XY people and they are not allowed to object. Some of these women will die because of late diagnosis of cancer.

It’s not all about toilets . Not that they are not important but it’s often used as a way of implying that women’s concerns are trivial.

As always. Anything that concerns women is just silly of course. Silly and bigoted. And over reacting, did I mention that?

The toilets issue is the least easy to police. I’m more concerned about sports/prisons/refuges. Those are places where a male body really really counts.

the 3rd set of toilets will be less outing the more natal women use them (as some are happy to do - me included). It will alleviate the pressure on women’s toilets (often have longer queues than men).

I think campaigning for a 3rd space that is gender neutral and hopefully inclusive of other non-sex/gender related issues would be much more productive than this toxic debate.

I used to look like a boy and people used to tell me where the boys bathrooms were. I am happy to use gender neutral toilets. However, that doesn’t mean that all women feel this way - particularly if they have had bad past experiences. I also think toilet provision is not fair to many groups including women, but also people with children in prams, health problems (including mental health issues like anxiety). Having more of these separate-room toilets would be positive.

Both natal and trans women are disadvantaged compared to men. In such situations, you don’t usually take things away from a disadvantaged group, but make extra space using the space/resources of the advantaged group? I would argue they should make men’s sport open to any sex and also create mixed/gender-neutral/low testosterone sports categories, but keep women’s sport for biological women.

This forum is moving really really quickly right now!

I read this yesterday, and I'm just adding my thoughts to the "cycle lane" analogy, because it has been picked up and run with.

TRAs will say it's not fair to create a separate space just for trans people, it means they need to "out themselves" and it's "othering" (this is aside from the fact it's not validating for transpeople, or if you're AGP it's not gratifying).

So just to let OP know this third space suggestion is one that is mixed sex, so for transmen, transwomen and men, women who are happy to use mixed sex.

A cycle lane is just for bikes. Not pedestrians or cars. The "third space" suggestion, to protect female only spaces for those who need them and still provide spaces for trans people, is for everyone not only for trans people.
That way there's noone "being outed" but there's still respect for the women-only spaces.

I detest this idea that we have to have a "reasonable excuse" to not want males in our single sex spaces. Males are not welcome, full stop.

This. Stop expecting women to help make men feel better by pretending they are women. They can ask for third spaces. If that's not good enough then what you are saying is that there is a set of men who want access to women's spaces no matter how much that upsets women. That's not the trait of a nice group of men, and they definitely should be kept away from women and girls.

Lots of people have unsuccessful therapy. It is sad for them. That does not mean everyone else has to go along with their delusions or compensate for their problems.

I won't be sending diet tips to my anorexic aunt even though that would validate her belief.

I won't be supporting my friend's ex in getting out of prison even though he truly truly believes she deserved everything he did to her and it is really her fault not his.

That man who claims he drives better after a couple of pints? I'm not getting into a car with him. I might even hide his keys. He truly believes he's a better driver after a drink.

I briefly had a boyfriend who explained he really truly couldn't get it up unless I wore very high heels. He thought that meant I should wear them. I thought it meant I needed to dump him. Which I did. Not my problem to solve. He thought I was a right mean bitch. He fully expected me to be his support human and could not comprehend my meanness in refusing. He wanted me to be kind.

"Why do we even have two separate toilets?" that is the question you should have concentrated on in the first place. Look up world wide campaigns to get toilets for women in poorer countries and why they are going to that much trouble.

A man feeling terribly sad because women don't share his view of himself, isn't women's problem to solve.

It makes no difference what the individual thinks or feels or wishes to be true.

It does not make it true. It does not negate biological fact, nor material reality.

It does not matter how they dress, what they look like, whether they have taken hormones, had surgery (very few do, in fact) or whatever else the case may be.

Sex matters. Biology matters.

Also, not sure why you stopped at idea 1. Transwomen rarely have surgery anyway, so isn't the best solution to make it acceptable people can wear whatever they like?