I think trans women are women.....

Look, you can take a dog and transform it completely so it will look like a cat. It is still a dog.

Raveon That's a really, really good point re the twisted use of intersectionality.

FOJN

I saw a female Scottish MEP say that transwomen were adult human females on one of those bonkers twitter feeds.

Despite having appropriated the concept of intersectionality so that it's now understood to be synonymous with TWAW 'feminism', TRAs cannot countenance that having female reproductive biology is a distinct axis of oppression.

Taken at face value, a TWAW, intersectional perspective should acknowledge that female humans who consider themselves women are doubly oppressed as compared to TW, due to fitting whatever nebulous, circular definition there is that day of 'woman', in addition to suffering under the particular forms of oppression, violence, marginalisation and exploitation that people born female are subjected to.

Instead, of course, they assert that being 'cis' puts women in a position of privilege and power over the supposedly far more vulnerable (stronger, larger, invulnerable to pregnancy, born and socialised into male privilege) 'women' who have male reproductive biology. Somehow, even for people who believe they are two different things, the intersection of 'womanhood' and 'femaleness' doesn't count; in fact those two characteristics in one person form a double negative of oppression, cancelling each other out so that, actually, 'female women' are the privileged ones.

Which tells you all you need to know about how woman-hating this ideology is.

Too late, the word female is already being appropriated

www.spreadshirt.co.uk/shop/design/trans+woman+adult+human+female+mens+premium+t-shirt-D5ba7796e222509170703b3a6?sellable=wQDwwo82ZouYQDkxBjE4-812-7

2. You think the men will let us keep female? Transwomen already post about what it's like to be female, a female role model even. Some even say that "trans" is a temporary state and once you have transitioned for long enough you are simply a woman. I have seen men claiming they are in fact cis.

Indeed. Look at Morgane Oger's Twitter bio - says "female".

Apart from the fact that TW want to share the definition of "woman", when you have something like menstruation, which has absolutely nothing to do with a TW, they lobby to have the word woman/female removed from that discussion. Whatever word you concede, it will never be enough. If it's not happening to a TW, then it can't be happening to you either. Menstruating people = yes, menstruating women = no.

coffeeteachocolate welcome to the discussion.

There's two reasons why women can't mean the stereotype gender role and female mean sex.

1. It's highly offensive to women. Stereotypes are just that, not material reality.

1. You think the men will let us keep female? Transwomen already post about what it's like to be female, a female role model even. Some even say that "trans" is a temporary state and once you have transitioned for long enough you are simply a woman. I have seen men claiming they are in fact cis.

Welcome to the true horror of trying to be reasonable in the trans debate.

I'm with you op, I have always rejected the label 'ciswoman'. I am a woman. What others call themselves is up to them, but there is no need to label me again. I am a woman.

I've always been keen to afford trans people with the same rights that men or women are afforded to in law, but still recognising we are different and it is not always appropriate to be treated the same.

I feel women's rights are being trodden on in the clamour to be a trans women's rights champion. It now doesn't feel possible to be quiet and let people live their life anymore, now they want to change my life.

I'm not smart or informed enough for debate but I should be able to say I'm scared to say I am a woman. I've never been a person to give offence, so careful to be inclusive but I think that's made me easier to bully down the order of importance.

coffee what you suggest sounds so reasonable and definitely not stupid (although it's conceding more than any other oppressed class would ever be asked to, after intense threat that is indistinguishable from the very oppression experienced by women in the first place) and despite disagreeing on moral grounds I would go along with that idea if it meant I could organise with left wing people again about other pressing issues such as poverty, racism etc.

But female is already taken too. If transwomen are women then they have female biology, duh? (I'm sorry I don't have time to link but I promise this is all out there on twitter etc). If you ask for a female practitioner to do your smear test or indeed if you end up on a female ward.... Well the NHS records staff and patient data with "female" being a self declaration of gender ID.

The contrived offence is nothing more than outrage that women won't obey

The sound of ideology crashing against inevitable resistance.

I think that this whole debate would be a lot clearer if feminists stopped using the Orwellian term 'transwomen' altogether. There's a perfectly good word already for adult male human beings. We are just scared to use it.

And if we did come up with a different word for women, say 'wombans', then men would demand that word too, and would immediately start claiming to be 'transwombans'.

After all, there are 3.8 billion women and girls, and pretending that male people are PREFIX-women, by necessity involves deciding for us that what we - women - are, is something utterly false and frankly offensive.

This.

After all, we've just seen Emma Watson, she of the "She for He" campaign, piss all over JKR's disclosure of her past sexual abuse. I think that tells us exactly how the woke generation will handle this

Yes! there is a very dark, deep shadow which is in direct contradiction to the overt/outer protestations and statements of equality/respect etc

But if we are so into language and trans women are women, why not them them be that and define “women” as the social construct of gender

I'd say it is the other way around. Transwomen are the construct of gender...literally. Transgenderism. Women are women, however they identify or define, or express themselves.

Tyro good point. The word for people who have ovaries is female.

An adult female is a woman.

But we cant use those definitions as its transphobic.

I think its a good post OP. You sum up the problem; males will not allow us to have a word which includes us and not them.

I am a woman, I am not a “not man” .
What a ridiculously mealy mouthed way of saying women.
Of course transwomen are not women. In what possible way are they women ? In a “feelings” way ? Quantify what feelings all women have in common that they also share with trans males ?
In an appearance way ? Take a look at the many hetero men who now identify as lesbians while sporting beards and bald heads.
There is nothing at that all women and male sex trans people have in common apart from humanity.

They look at the sexual assault stats and say "See, we told you women do it too, not all men, etc. etc..."

They look at the teenage girls coming home pregnant from guide camp and immediately victim-blame the girls for not gatekeeping their bodies well enough.

(After all, we've just seen Emma Watson, she of the "She for He" campaign, piss all over JKR's disclosure of her past sexual abuse. I think that tells us exactly how the woke generation will handle this.)

But I’m now so heartily sick that I’m afraid I struggle even with the term transwoman.

Yes. That ship has sailed for me.

I'd rather not have the word woman associated in any way with any false, sexist stereotype so that any male person can wear it.

After all, there are 3.8 billion women and girls, and pretending that male people are PREFIX-women, by necessity involves deciding for us that what we - women - are, is something utterly false and frankly offensive.

Some things are just not identities, and pretending otherwise is a lie that badly impacts the people who ARE those things.

able bodied cannot identify as Disabled
White cannot identify as Black
Adult cannot identify as Child
Not pregnant cannot identify as Pregnant
Male cannot identify as female

These are not identities for anyone to claim, they are material states that a person objectively is, or is not. You have to UNrecognise the actual people who ARE these things to bestow the words on those who are not.

There is zero offence to be taken from naming men as men, when we understand that man is the word for their bodily sex.
The contrived offence is nothing more than outrage that women won't obey.

20+ more years to go

I really think that it will take more sexual assaults, more teenage pregnancies at girl guide camp, more gold medals for men in women's sports before people finally say 'oh yeah...... Hmmm..... Why didn't anyone say anything, then

i think you're right! I of the feeling that this is going to get even worse before it eventually burns itself out in its own contradictions. 20+ years of woke, intersectionalist identity politics of every persuasion.

This is my first post on this board, so I am still learning. Apologies in advance if this comes across as stupid .

But if we are so into language and trans women are women, why not them them be that and define “women” as the social construct of gender.

And reserve (biological) female for the biological sex (with female only sport, female toilets, female specific healthcare, female specific legal protection etc).

Then there could be “women only” knitting circles, make-up courses, anything that floats peoples’ boats really. I doubt I personally would attend as I don’t fit very well into the gender construct, but many might?

@rabbitwoman oh wow. That’s crazy. I’m not sure that I can enter the debate and not say what I think! But saying what I think may cost me a few friendships...