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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I GC? Where to find info

37 replies

Pinkyyy · 10/06/2020 22:41

My first time posting in Feminism so please go easy.

I see things all over the news these days and a lot of it makes me really angry. Often articles that try to say that women's only spaces should be open for men to use etc. I also feel very strongly about being forced to use pronouns and I've even seen people lose their jobs for refusing??

There is a lot of terminology being used that I don't fully understand, and an awful lot of abbreviations. I notice that a lot of the views of people who describe themselves as 'GC' seem to align with my own.

I don't want to stay silent on these matters, but I also don't have the knowledge to speak up on them. I wondered if anyone could point me in the right direction? I enjoy listening to podcasts whilst doing the dishes/driving etc.

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Eo91 · 01/07/2020 02:48

A GRC allows you to apply for a new birth certificate.

At the moment (I personally thinks this needs to be amended) you can get different form of ID changed without a GRC. For example, with a covering letter from a specialist at a Gender Identity Clinic, you can have the sex marker on your passport or driving license changed.

EyesOpening · 29/06/2020 11:16

Thanks for the replies, yes I was basically asking how in practice, the single sex spaces can use the law for someone born as the opposite sex but have had their sex changed on their birth certificate, from being allowed access because if they showed their birth certificate as ID, it would say they are the appropriate sex that is allowed to use those facilities.
Also, for the second part of my query, I work somewhere where you sometimes have to establish ID, so if someone hadn't had their BC altered to reflect their new presenting self and they showed me their BC, I would assume that it wasn't theirs and I wouldn't allow further proceedings to take place (until they showed me some other form of acceptable ID), other than further ID how is this resolved so we can proceed? (I haven't come across anyone saying that they're transgender but I have refused to proceed when a man has presented me with a debit/credit card in a female's name

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 13:26

@nauticant

No corrections needed, you've explained that really well.

nauticant · 28/06/2020 13:17

I think you're asking about how the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) interacts with the Equality Act 2010 (EA) EyesOpening.

Obviously the GRA was put into law first and enables a legal "changing of sex" so a person could get a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) and change the sex on their birth certificate. This can happen for people who have not undergone any drug or surgical procedures to "change gender".

For this reason when the EA was drafted and put into law to prevent discrimination against people having one of a number of "protected characteristics", it was understood that this would create a conflict of rights in that it would mean there would be male-bodied "women", and allowing them full use of women's single sex spaces and services might not be desirable.

Therefore, although according to the EA it is not permitted in general to discriminate against trans people for being trans (the actual wording is someone having the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment"), the EA specifies that in some special cases discrimination is permitted for "providing separate services for persons of each sex", "providing separate services differently for persons of each sex", and "providing a service only to persons of one sex" if this is done as "a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim".

However, this is vague legal language, it hasn't been tested in the courts, it's in any case a garbled mess (are transwomen with a GRC the same sex as women or a different sex?), and as a result there are conflicting claims made about what the law is supposed to mean and how it's supposed to operate. One problem that results is that the operation of this part of the EA is typically ignored meaning that women's single-sex spaces and services are opened to transwomen without any thought having been given to whether women should be protected.

This is my understanding and if I've got it wrong I'm happy to be corrected.

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:51

The GRC is a legal fiction. My biological sex hasn't changed, but I am legally recognised as the opposite sex.

What should be happening would be that under the EA2010 exceptions I linked to earlier, although I am legally recognised as a man if there is a male single sex space that where biological men may reasonably object to having a female present there, I can legally be prevented from entering (there's not so many for men, but swap it around and you can understand why this clause is important for women's rights).

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:43

When you're granted a GRC you can apply to get a new birth certificate which confirms the new sex marker and your relevant name.

So when I get my GRC, the F on my current birth certificate would now show as M on the new one and the name on it would be my current name as shown on my deed poll (some people have pretty unisex names so no name change on the birth certificate may be necessary).

The GRC would mean I am legally recognised as a man (even though my biological sex has not changed).

Eo91 · 28/06/2020 12:23

If you're looking for law that protects single sex spaces you're looking for the Equality Act 2010.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

The link is for the full EA2010, the picture is of Schedule 3, Part 7, Single-sex services.

Am I GC? Where to find info
EyesOpening · 28/06/2020 11:42

Hi, me again!
I'm still getting on with my reading but I'm a little unsure about something, so hoping that someone can enlighten me.
So in single sex spaces, refuges toilets etc male born people are not allowed, but if you get GRC you can change your birth certificate, I think, so how does this work please? Plus if you hadn't changed your birth certificate and you'd had appearance altering changes, how would someone know that it was your birth certificate e.g. you call yourself Jane Smith and look like a woman but your birth certificate is in the name of Joe Bloggs?
Thanks

EyesOpening · 17/06/2020 13:28

I've read a lot of stuff recently, so much that I now can't find things I want to look at again, specifically atm the bit in law where it sets out where refuges/toilets/hospital/HCP etc are single sex spaces.
If anyone would kindly oblige to provide me a link, I'd be grateful, thanks, and preferably a few other links to good things for reference e.g.
www.peaktrans.org/
womansplaceuk.org/
thanks

Staffori · 14/06/2020 00:26

This site has links to thousands of articles and videos www.peaktrans.org/

Pinkyyy · 13/06/2020 23:26

Thanks for that @LittlePearl

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ScrimpshawTheSecond · 13/06/2020 20:12
  • or in fact anywhere, really.
ScrimpshawTheSecond · 13/06/2020 20:12

On this board it means 'gender critical' feminism. I don't think I've seen it on here used to mean 'gender conforming'.

TheDinnerWitch · 13/06/2020 19:12

Can someone help me out, I've seen 'GC' used a lot of MN and google tells me it either means 'gender conforming' or 'gender critical'. Which one are you using it as? It would help me understand lots of other MN users. Thanks

OhHolyJesus · 13/06/2020 18:58

For detransitioner stories just you tube search it - I really like Ellie and Ben GNC (did a great interview with Benjamin Boyse who have covered a lot of trans stuff, I saw something about cults today and it was very interesting.)

Also try DAN Detransitioner Advocacy Network founded by Charlie Evans.

www.afterellen.com/general-news/574936-charlie-evans-interview

Also related but somewhat a different side check out Trans Widows and Children of Transitioners, the matter always makes me think of John Ozmiek/Jane Fae's daughter and her 16 year old self sitting her GCSEs...

EyesOpening · 13/06/2020 17:13

Thank you CaraDune for your reply. I've been trying to digest it but I think I'm even more confused than ever now!
With regard to the abortion rights, do you mean that (some people are saying) war isn't murder, whereas abortion is? And that's because it's women who are having them?
Where you say: If it [abortion] becomes something "some people do", are you meaning instead of "women", thereby detracting from the fact that it is women?
I'm also unsure exactly about what you're getting at when you say "becomes decoupled from all the other issues in women's lives".
So going back to "people who menstruate": I can understand about cervix-havers, that's just weird, I've never come across it though nor chest feeders but "people who menstruate" to me, doesn't seem the same, (please don't shout at me! Maybe I just haven't seen enough of this sort of thing yet), it seems to encompass the very people, and only those people, who it needs to. Do you think that transmen should be called women then?
I appreciate any replies and, hopefully, your patience!

LittlePearl · 13/06/2020 16:13

Welcome Pinkyyy.

I found this a helpful video.

Kristina Harrison is a trans woman who understands biological sex and advocates for women. I've sent the link to other people who expressed an interest when they were just putting their toe in the water.

CaraDune · 13/06/2020 16:11

In answer to your question, EyesOpening.

"People who menstruate", "menstruators", "cervix havers", "chest feeding" etc. all reduce women to their bodily functions which is a bit offensive IMO.

It's also a bloody disaster when used in a public health context - which is clearer if you have English as a second language, or struggle with reading, or simply aren't familiar with the Latin-derived names for bits of your anatomy (including internal bits which you've never actually seen) - "If you're a woman, remember to book an appointment with your GP's surgery to check for cervical cancer" or "Are you a cervix-haver? Then go ..."

But worst of all it decouples our biology from our political struggles.

Abortion rights, for e.g. How come men are allowed to have "just wars" but "abortion is murder"? Because abortion is something women do. If it becomes something "some people do" abortion as a women's rights issue becomes decoupled from all the other issues in women's lives, like the fact that we are much more likely to be on the receiving end of male sexual violence, that we're economically disadvantaged because of our sex, that there's a power imbalance with relatively few women in positions of power - whether that's on the small scale within the average company, or on the large scale in terms of national governments. Our biology, our reproductive rights, our position in society - they're all tangled up together. Try to hide from the fact that it's women that need abortions and you're kicking the reasons why under the carpet, in countries like Nicaragua, they're denied abortions.

(And don't even get me started on the fucking Guardian re-naming "female genital mutation" "forced genital mutilation".)

In slogan form: if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism.

Oh, and that group of people who menstruate. Women. All of them. Some of them may sincerely wish they'd been born male, or "feel male inside", but every single last one of them has female biology.

EyesOpening · 13/06/2020 15:53

this is probably the wrong thread on which to ask but I have a question about JKR's tweet where she links the article from devex. I don't really get her point. Is she disagreeing with the expression "people who menstruate"?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 12/06/2020 15:37

I am old enough to remember legislation coming in which said that places of employment with more than I think it was five employees had to provide separate lavatories for use by male and by female employees, and what a step forward that was for women who disliked sharing lavatories with men -- every woman I knew at the time who had to use the loo at work said how great it was not to have to worry about piss on the seat and the floor all round it any more.

I suppose we can hope that XY women may sit to pee as XX women do, but I don't think I would rely on it.

BitterAndOnlySlightlyTwisted · 12/06/2020 15:34

Posie Parker’s YouTube channel is now under her real name: Kellie-Jay Keen. See her rant about JK Rowling and that Judas Daniel Radcliffe. I cried.

Also a sensible trans-sexual named Rose of Dawn whose clips are often highly amusing.

The attack on language that the TRAs are carrying out is but a symptom of a far greater movement. If you want to be really terrified about what they are up to have look at Bret Weinstein’s latest “Dark Horse” podcast. He and his wife have both lived through this nightmare, and it’s coming for us all

EyesOpening · 12/06/2020 15:22

@Pinkyyy

I feel the same *@EyesOpening* I just don't feel that I can see one group find their freedom by taking away the freedom of another.

I really appreciate all the help. There truly is an awful lot to get my head around @ScrimpshawTheSecond so I'm glad I made this thread as I've now got plenty of places to start

Me too on both counts! Thank you for starting this thread and thank you to all who have posted

I have the spent the past few days reading but I am by no means finished, if you ever can be!
My position so far is that there must have been enough women in need of single sex only spaces (and we're not just talking about the changing rooms in M&S!) and enough people concerned about it, to legislate for it and now I have to decide whether the implementation of new laws for the rights of transwomen will make the women's safeguarding laws not worth the paper their written on.
Is this basically the crux of the matter or are there more issues I haven't uncovered yet?
Thanks

Apollo440 · 10/06/2020 23:26

Radicalised by Mumsnet Smile

Once the penny drops there is no going back.

Pinkyyy · 10/06/2020 23:19

I feel the same @EyesOpening I just don't feel that I can see one group find their freedom by taking away the freedom of another.

I really appreciate all the help. There truly is an awful lot to get my head around @ScrimpshawTheSecond so I'm glad I made this thread as I've now got plenty of places to start

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Winesalot · 10/06/2020 23:18

Eyes it was realizing that the emperor has no clothes that did it for me. Having also been One of the generation that started benefiting from others fighting for these rights, I too realised there is so much at stake. Now I cannot believe how far this has gone. It feels like a conspiracy theory but it is real.