Pro-woman is just a euphemism for transphobic

[quote Sojo88]@Winesalot

Thanks :)

To be honest the reason I haven't answered a lot of pp's questions is I do find this quite a hard topic to completely get my head round, and I can't explain my thoughts very well on here. I just often see a lot of seemingly very harsh comments towards transwomen on MN - and it makes me wonder why everyone has such harsh views. I appreciate there are issues and some feel it imposes on their rights as women, but I personally don't feel like this.[/quote]
Fair enough that you don't personally feel this. But it is always important to look at both side of any argument and often the right answer becomes apparent. Particularly if you start by looking at for instance, women's sports and sex discrimination in the workplace and that now 'women's' crimes are being skewed by male bodied peoples crimes etc.

Perhaps when you encounter these issues you will have to work out if even giving an inch is the right way to go if the replication effect changes a whole heap of other rights that you never considered. Either way, thanks for explaining your position.

but I wouldn't deny a trans woman her right to be in the female only space I asked for at uni, or if a trans woman wanted to get changed in the same changing room as me.

It is not a right, as pp said.

It's lovely that you are comfortable and happy and privileged enough to enjoy mixed sex spaces. That's great. I'm all for the additional compulsory provision of mixed sex spaces for better inclusion and comfort for all.

However if you simply insist that any male who chooses to must be allowed to use the female only provision as a 'right' - what will you be doing with the females who are now excluded from that provision or any provision at all because they are not privileged enough to be able to enjoy a mixed sex space?

Often for reasons of vulnerability and disadvantage. You sound like a person who cares about such things, and about social justice, and about inclusion. What do you feel about meeting the rights and needs of those females? Surely female people aren't less important than people born male?

And doesn't it seem appropriate to you that a feminist board - who mean by 'feminist' the centering and working for female issues and needs - would care about and wish to ensure the rights of females as a class are not removed in way that advantages males - but at the cost of many vulnerable, disadvantaged females?

I don't think most of the posters here are confused, tbh. & a year ago I'd have agreed we were scared, but the tide is turning, & many of us are finding the courage to speak openly.

@Elsiebear90 I also feel like there isn't much middle ground

“No one believes twaw, not really, not deep down, not even transwomen themselves.”

Do tell us what else we believe and don’t believe...

@Winesalot thank you for the clarification, I was probably a touch defensive as any time I have posted on here with a slightly different view than the majority I get ridiculed and bullied off the thread. I personally think there are some huge issues with self ID, and I don’t believe trans women are “real women”, however, I agree with another poster that there does appear to me to be some very harsh views against trans people as a whole that I can’t subscribe to and that makes me feel unwelcome on this board as trans rights is an extremely dominant topic on here.

Yeah I haven't read a lot of the comments in the feminism board, I don't have the free leisure time to endlessly scroll through utter garbage, it's just random people throwing their random opinions out into the void, and I've been trying to talk to people about what the issue is with trans people but I just get people frothing at the mouth about how their impeding our rights, when I say rights I mean human rights. Not male or female rights, the rights to live on this earth as a human being with dignity and respect, not to get treated like they are litterally eroding womans rights and that they are a parasite in the cultural movements.

I would love for my eyes to be opened from all the lies I've been told but none of you are doing it, none of you can actually give me anything concrete other than you're scared and confused.

@LastRoloIsMinethis thread was created with the purposes of offering an alternative view point that is not “done to death” therefore I posted in it.

No it was created to tell off those mean feminists which I can tell you is done on a very regular basis and is very much so "done to death".

Neko a TM is welcome in female spaces because they share our biology. They aren't trying to take away our places in sport or on shortlists. They aren't having their violent (often sexual) crimes recorded as women's in crime figures. They aren't going into women's prisons and sexually assaulting other prisoners.

Oh and a TW actually has no right to be in a sex segregated space intended for females.

Can anyone tell me why a TW should be allowed in but say, my lovely mate Bob (a man who identifies as a man) can't? I'm pretty sure he's not going to hurt anyone and he's a very gentle soul but he may feel more comfortable trying on clothes in the ladies changing rooms.

[quote Elsiebear90]@LastRoloIsMine and what do you think was implied by that comment then?[/quote]
I am sorry Elsiebear90 if I have made you feel you are not welcome here. I meant just the opposite. I DO notice that you are here regularly and express yourself, just as I do. I was pointing out why I thought maybe there was more chatter about this issue in the past month.

Everyone who engages and actually stops for a discussion is welcome here. I genuinely mean that we should all have our say here as long as it is a genuine dialogue and not just an excuse to scold women and their discussion. Hence I suggested also that you might like to start other threads.

Again, my apologies that my poor choice of words did not communicate my intent and made you feel unwelcome.

@LastRoloIsMine this thread was created with the purposes of offering an alternative view point that is not “done to death” therefore I posted in it.

@Winesalot

Thanks :)

To be honest the reason I haven't answered a lot of pp's questions is I do find this quite a hard topic to completely get my head round, and I can't explain my thoughts very well on here. I just often see a lot of seemingly very harsh comments towards transwomen on MN - and it makes me wonder why everyone has such harsh views. I appreciate there are issues and some feel it imposes on their rights as women, but I personally don't feel like this.

and what do you think was implied by that comment then?

Why are you reading and posting on a thread you feel is done to death and you don't agree with.

At no point did Winesalot tell you to get off the thread or tell you not to post. They questioned why you bothered posting.

No one believes twaw, not really, not deep down, not even transwomen themselves.

There’s more issues in feminism than trans rights yet this whole board is completely dominated by it.

Perhaps you should let the OP know that (kindly of course) given that they started this one.

People complain nonstop about trans women but I NEVER see any kind of conversation about transmen here and their issues

I do so hope you've also made this point widely and repeatedly on Twitter, and corrected Daniel Radcliffe's thinking for him. After all, surely if one were to take issue with JKR's tweet about menstruating people, the group who should be offended would be transmen. And yet Daniel's very lengthy (some might say tediously and excessively so) apology on behalf of someone else only mentioned that "transwomen are women".

“I hope that if you have genuine questions, that you feel free to ask. Or just read some threads such as 'break it down' to understand the breadth of this topic”

If you have genuine questions then I’d recommend you explore the wealth of balanced and well informed sources out there rather than the toxic discourse on these threads.

@LastRoloIsMine and what do you think was implied by that comment then?

People complain nonstop about trans women but I NEVER see any kind of conversation about transmen here and their issues.

Then you haven't been looking very hard, but since you just admitted you don't even read the comments, quelle surprise.

but I wouldn't deny a trans woman her right to be in the female only space I asked for at uni, or if a trans woman wanted to get changed in the same changing room as me.

Its not a TW right to be in female only spaces because they are MALE.
Its a females right which the second you let males in you are removing those females rights.

I'm not reading the whole thread as I'm not in the mood to be reminded how awful people can be,

I'm not reading the whole thread as I'm not in the mood to be reminded how awful people can be, I might actually find I've been lied to and am making up strawman arguments.

Fixed that for you.

[quote Sojo88]@Winesalot

I can't speak specifically for the OP, but I think where they're coming from is that there's a lot of hatred towards people who want to be women, despite being born male. Some people feel suicidal over having been born in the wrong body, and if they read some of these threads I think it would greatly upset them. No, someone male-born will never truly be 100% female, but if that's what they want I would refer to them how they want, I would call them a woman and I wouldn't try telling them they're not what they wish to be identified as. I guess this whole "transwomen aren't women" thing just seems a very harsh thing to say, and unnecessary. However, I appreciate that it makes things a bit more complicated when it comes to toilets and changing rooms etc. Sorry, not expressed that very well but hope it makes sense.[/quote]
I think though that you have thoughts that are probably not far removed from quite a few who post here. No one wants anyone to commit suicide, however, this statistic is weaponised and is actually not correct if you read up on it. It was also recently said by experts (without an agenda) that the suicide rate is as high after transition and it might actually be driven by a) lack of mental health support to understand potential comorbities and b) that it was NOT the fix that they thought it was. But this is not discussed widely. Why? Good question.

I think that you are on a feminist board and we are strongly discussing women's rights. That is Female's rights. Rights that cover pregnancy, menstruation, discrimination and overcoming socialisation just to name a few. But these rights ARE being diluted and harmed by the acceptance of males into the term women. however, to express any whiff of questioning this has been labelled transphobic and has been shut down. So, yes, there is plenty of anger sometimes when people come and tell us off and claim to be bullied.

I hope that if you have genuine questions, that you feel free to ask. Or just read some threads such as 'break it down' to understand the breadth of this topic.

I'm not reading the whole thread as I'm not in the mood to be reminded how awful people can be, I agree with you OP, whenever I try to understand the women that frequent this boards views it mostly boils down to, all men are perverts who want to look at young girls in their underwear,and it's all a ruse to invade wens spaces so they can leer at us and make us feel uncomfortable, or it's saying 'why is a man's comfort more important than a woman's?' why is anyone's comfort more important? It's not. I just hear stories about well what is there's a vunerable women who doesn't feel comfortable with aa male body near her, what about the male bodies that feel such an intense dissociation that they self harm themselves and get into abusive situations but forget them because a women, I've made up for the sake of this argument, might be uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable is a part of life, I've been abused and beaten, used to flinch at any males who were around me, even my current partner couldn't hug me without me flinching but I wouldn't deny a trans woman her right to be in the female only space I asked for at uni, or if a trans woman wanted to get changed in the same changing room as me.

I also find it weird how transmen arnt welcomed with loving open arms here, seeing as their actually women according to a lot of people on this board, what are feminists doing to help transmen?

People complain nonstop about trans women but I NEVER see any kind of conversation about transmen here and their issues. Makes me think that maybe they just don't feel comfortable about trans people as a whole, you know, almost transphobic.