Pro-woman is just a euphemism for transphobic

People complain nonstop about trans women but I NEVER see any kind of conversation about transmen here and their issues.

What utter tosh, and yet again shows your sexism. That it's all about female spaces, and men wanting to get into them. Because all you are doing is focusing on men's demands re female spaces.

So predictable.

There is thread, after thread on here about people like Keira Bell, and women who detransition, the use of puberty blockers on children, the Tavistock and their insistence on delaying study results. Thread after thread about lesbians, and being encouraged to transition to transmen. Links, stories, narratives and articles about why women transition, and concluding it's the objectification of women in a porn soaked society. Posie Parker campaigns relentlessly about girls who identify as boys. Transgendertrend. Safe schools alliance.

All these are directed largely at females because they are the ones showing up to gender clinics in their droves. 70% of the children and teens at gender clinics are female.

Naturally you wouldn't have noticed any of this. Because your primary concern is about accessing women's spaces and the men who want to do it.

It's such a giveaway.

I realise the posting pattern is meant to incite, but I'm also aware of the old adage "talk to the lurkers".

I'd be interested to know what they're making of this thread.

The OP started with the claim that trans rights don't take away from women's rights.

Several people have taken the time to post various examples of precisely the sort of clash of rights she says doesn't ever happen.

OP and her supporters have not responded to any of them. They've told us to be kind.

Several people have posted links to collections of hideously abusive responses to JKR on twitter, and asked whether OP and her supporters have been telling them to be kind.

Crickets.

I suspect this thread is not achieving quite what OP wanted it to achieve.

[quote Elsiebear90]@Winesalot thank you for the clarification, I was probably a touch defensive as any time I have posted on here with a slightly different view than the majority I get ridiculed and bullied off the thread. I personally think there are some huge issues with self ID, and I don’t believe trans women are “real women”, however, I agree with another poster that there does appear to me to be some very harsh views against trans people as a whole that I can’t subscribe to and that makes me feel unwelcome on this board as trans rights is an extremely dominant topic on here.[/quote]
No worries Elsiebear. I remember that you hold those views which is why I was mentioning that you are here. There is no excuse for people to be ridiculed for a calmly discussed view. I also know that sometimes we can all get heated as it does feel like much of the time you have to look over your shoulder to see if you appear on a twitter feed or if a poster is here simply to scold. And this thread was started to purely do that.

Do tell us what else we believe and don’t believe...

How can you believe it though? Quite literally, how? You know, as well as I do (and as well as a TW knows) that they are a male. No amount of removing body parts, or adding silicone body parts, is going to change that. No dresses or lipsticks or handbags will change that. On what basis do you genuinely in your heart of hearts believe that this person (this male person) is a woman? Is it not just that you are "being kind" (whatever that means) to this male person? Colluding in their delusion, pretending you don't see it?

let tranwomen into female spaces if that's where they feel most comfortable, and if you don't, then try on your clothes elsewhere

This 'third space' option is what many of us here have been asking for for quite a long time.

That's the type of goady shit that will absolutely get me angry.

looks for the sweary corner

what I have noticed is that if you treat people with respect and patience, everyone might learn something.

If the political transactivist lobby would treat females with respect and patience, as opposed to rape threats, death threats, hammering on windows and kettling, screaming abuse and NoDebating… most of these issues would never have arisen in the first place.

Being kind never got anyone anywhere other than on the door step...as a door mat.

If you really believe my DD should get changed elsewhere for swimming or accept being alone with a strange man in a changing room, with a penis, in close proximity to her then you need to talk to a professional.

Nakedness should be normalised in this context?? WTF

Don't feed the troll. There's no discussion to be had. The posting pattern is meant to incite. You're safe with us JK.

Since Neko can't be bothered to scroll, I'll repeat my earlier question as succinctly as I can.

The OHCHR says women prisoners have a right to be housed in single sex accommodation. Convicted rapist Karen White wants to be housed according to his self-professed gender (and is currently housed against those wishes in a men's prison).

If trans rights don't take anything from women's rights, please explain to me how acceding to both these claimed rights at the same time is possible.

Be Kind

medium.com/@rebeccarc/j-k-rowling-and-the-trans-activists-a-story-in-screenshots-78e01dca68d

Males aren't coming into my spaces. Males do not get to go where they want, my spaces are mine and I will not be expected to flee them. If any woman wants to get changed alongside males she is free to use the men's facilities - well, perhaps not because men also value their privacy and dignity and will want her to be removed from their space. In women's spaces, my NO and the NO of any other woman or girl is all that matters. It is not up for debate. The ones whining for access need to learn to be a lot kinder and get some respect for boundaries.

all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised

Hop on over to porn hub, there are lots of men there ready to get off with you, don't worry about the violence, trafficking, abuse and slavery on there, it's just part of the normalisation isn't it.

I often read, as many do here on MN, the articles and theories published by people who have balanced views, and even the ones completely biased that justify why males should be able to call themselves not just women, but females. I take out my views and I check them over regularly so to speak. I am learning everyday. As I said, I do not feel I can call myself a feminist. I have not studied it and I don't read feminist books.

I am afraid though, that all I have seen from you today is a lack of willingness to engage and a whole lot of 'toxic' shaming. I have read deeply on these boards and what I have noticed is that if you treat people with respect and patience, everyone might learn something.

Do tell us what else we believe and don’t believe

Who is this "we"? Women or transwomen?

To the OP, sock puppets and other dog whistlers:
^*
Do you believe women should continue to have all the rights they currently have in law?*^

A simple yes or no will suffice.

If anything this feminist board has stuck me more into my current thinking, let tranwomen into female spaces if that's where they feel most comfortable, and if you don't, then try on your clothes elsewhere, use a locked door cubicle in the swimming area. People shouldn't feel shame or weird about nude bodies, male, female, intersex, all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised.

So basically anyone who doesn't think and feel like you should be excluded as a punishment for their lesserness. Disabled females, traumatised females, females of cultures and races different to yours.... bit supremacist isn't it? Bit 'othering' and superior? Your privilege is showing a whole lot.

This is no kind of answer to make society a better, happier place. Until there is equal respect for everyone in this situation and solutions that will work for all, this is not a way forward that will lead to good outcomes.

Sojo welcome - you sound like you're up for discussing and listening which you'll find lots of here.

I'll be honest, sometimes my tone will be short and snappy when I feel a poster is being goady or demonstrates zero empathy for women and kids. Like many here I'm aware of how trans ideology and self ID have been/could be abused in the name of trans people and the consequences of that frighten me. If you look on the Break it Down for me you'll be . Another one I can't remember the exact name of (This Never Happens?) is a scary good read.

MN is one of the few places where we can be angry and not be overly policed (although there have been moments). That's why we feel safe saying how we feel.

I'm sure all posters on this thread support all trans people in living safely but that must not be at the expense of the rights that women before us fought and died for.

Keep talking

Yes, I'm scared, Neko. Scared of males given carte blanche to enter female spaces, scared of being assigned a male for health care procedures, even if I ask for a woman. I'm scared on behalf of women who are too afraid to access rape crisis centres in case there are male bodies or male voices there to greet them. I'm scared for women in prison being attacked by males. I'm scared for girls in schools who are told that if they question a male getting changed alongside them then they are bigoted. I'm scared for children getting told that if they feel they're 'in the wrong body' then they should be given medication for that, instead of being offered the support they need.

I am wholeheartedly in agreement that trans people should live with dignity and respect, absolutely! Do I get the dignity and respect of being called a woman, and my rights to a male-free space respected, too?

@Alyssum34456 I respectfully disagree, I have concerns about self ID, but I don’t view trans people as having a fetish or mental health problems, I respect their right to transition and I will call them by their preferred pronouns, but I also don’t believe just saying “I’m a woman” means you should be treated as a woman and that this is open to abuse and is inherently dangerous to women, as I have discussed in other threads. I have no issues with post op transsexual women using women’s spaces, but I do have an issue with men only having to say “I’m a woman” to be allowed in. I think this is somewhat of a middle ground, however, others may disagree.

If you think this entire section is garbage I wonder why you're even here? Would it have made more sense to scroll past?

I'm going to start a whipround to help posters in FWR who don't have a scroll button. It must be terribly distressing, poor lambs.

Why do TRA's need to change womens rights? Why don't they try to get individual cubicles instead of wanting to enter womens bathrooms? Why don't they ask for all changing rooms to be private instead of wanting to be naked with a lady dick in front of 8 year old girls in the womens changing room? Why don't they push for those things? Why don't TRA's have to "be kind"? There is no good reason why women need to give up rights. They can push for rights that would benefit all of us but instead they choose to make many female born women unhappy and feel vulnerable. It's not the job of women to make other people happy, they need to respect our hard gotten rights first.

You're overly sarcastic, I know better tone is really off putting aswell tbh, I come to these birds curious, open to getting my mind changed but I just get shot down and the same thing repeated at me, told aww well you've been brainwashed, by people who sound brain washed. It's like the left and the right in America, each side pointing the finger at the other and screaming about why their right and the other side is wrong.

If anything this feminist board has stuck me more into my current thinking, let tranwomen into female spaces if that's where they feel most comfortable, and if you don't, then try on your clothes elsewhere, use a locked door cubicle in the swimming area. People shouldn't feel shame or weird about nude bodies, male, female, intersex, all bodies are beautiful and nakedness should be normalised.