Gender appropriation vs cultural appropriation

Grown women have a CULTURE beyond just individual lived experience. A culture handed down from aunts and mothers to daughters. Handed down in organisations such as the Guides. In some countries women's culture is secret from men. In some countries (eg Japan) it is encoded in forms of the language.

Trans women grew up as boys, and boys and men have a different culture. So this goes way beyond simple gender or sex appropriation.

I agree with @Collidascope

Sex is polarised, with a very small third category for intersex people. And I believe most intersex people consider themselves to be male or female in general, iyswim. But basically you're either male or female. Both has distinguished chromosomes.

Whereas with race, obviously it is completely possible to be biologically from multiple 'races'. And we all are, when you think about it. All of us have ancestry from different races, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the human race in its entirety evolved from a point in Africa. Therefore there is much more scope for identifying with a different race, as it is very possible you have ancestry (and possibly DNA) from that race.

Furthermore, regardless of race, we are all (aside from intersex people) male or female. So when you think about it, appropriating the female sex is also appropriating race, as you would be claiming to be a 'woman' in general as opposed to, say, a white woman.

Does that make sense or am I rambling

Are there White people who have asked to be identified as Black? Are they suicidal or depressed because they are in the wrong body?

With respect, I think this is the wrong question to ask. Better questions would be:

• Does my woke friend think it is OK for a white person to be officially recognised as black and take awards/positions etc intended for black people (aimed at celebrating black culture/helping tackle inequality etc)? If not, why?
• If transwomen are feeling suicidal and depressed because they feel trapped in the wrong body is it impossible for them to dress/act as they see fit and be supported as individuals without allowing any man who wishes to be legally treated as a woman (and therefore enter safe spaces for women, take women's awards etc)? Is it really impossible for the safety, wellbeing and right to equality of transwomen to be protected and supported without sacrificing the safety, wellbeing and right to equality of women?

Yes, that's it, thanks! I thought that was such an interesting article, and the people are much more sympathetic than people trying to claim transracialism, it's a good illustration of the difference.

BluBooby posted this video in the other thread yesterday, it's about essentialism and intersectionality. It's slightly quick and dirty as an explanation but it's very understandable, and I think it goes a long way to seeing why the same people would believe in gender essence and race essence.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=4FngeEwsVLU&app=desktop

Here it is, @Goosefoot

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/25/race-east-jackson-ohio-appalachia-white-black

It doesn't make a lot of sense to have that particular sort of objection to "transracialism" but then to be ok with it for transgenderism, at first glance.

They really are only comparisons though, because they are different in several ways. There is an objectivity to sex that there isn't for race. And Dolzal, in a way, is maybe not the best person to look at, I think she has some real struggles that prevent her from thinking clearly and she's not really up to the pressure of defending her POV, because it is a manifestation of a sort of illness. And that's kind of obvious.

A more interesting example, if anyone remembers it was posted here in an article a while back, is that there is a town in the US where everyone was considered to be black - it was a sort of place where social outcasts live near a larger town. In reality many had no biological or ancestral connection to Africa, they were entirely of European descent. But they came to consider themselves black, they were treated as black because they were from that particular place, and their descendants considered themselves black and some still do. Some of the people did marry into black families but not all.

I think this is a fairly robust example of why sex and race are basically different, race can include whatever we agree upon socially.

But if we look a little more closely, actually supporting gender ideology and nor transracialism does fit together. They are both essentialist viewpoints. Many people are both gender essentialists and race essentialists, because essentialism is how they think about all identity issues.

I was saying this just yesterday after seeing a Dr Phil clip of a black lady claiming she is white and everyone basically telling her she's fucking crazy and she can't change her DNA, she's quite clearly black..I thought 'what's the fucking difference?'

I’ve been wondering exactly this and I hate the fact that I can’t articulate this in public without being vilified.

Post Brexit there would be huge practical consequence of British identifying as French meaning they legally become French and the French people are not allowed to object or else bigot.

Nobody is "in the wrong body". If someone feels like they are then the issue lies in the brain.

I don't think we're allowed to talk about this nor the fact that it only works one way ..... otherwise we are bigots, transphobes, racists etc.

I have also wondered about this.

I could learn to speak fluent French, eat French food, wear clothes that are from France, go and live there and tell people I am French and even become a French citizen, but I can't change my birth certificate to say I was born in France and have always been French.

Now, if I want to say that I was actually born a man I can get my birth certificate altered to say so despite the actual, y'know, physical and biological facts

''Cultural genocide involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate''
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

Anthony lennon's story is really interesting. It's not particularly clear cut at all. However sexual appropriation is clear cut. Don't do it.

What kind of person compares prejudice and discrimination to see which is worse, this isn’t a fucking game of top trumps here.
This is missing the point. It's not about comparing to see who has it worse, it's about comparing to highlight the parallels between the situations and differences in what is deemed acceptable in each case. It exposes inconsistencies and speaks to the underlying motives of those setting the agenda.

• kind of person compares prejudice and discrimination to see which is worse, this isn’t a fucking game of top trumps here.

Whilst we’re at it why don’t we chuck in the disabled, they get a pretty raw deal as well BUT is it as bad as women or BAME people, hmm tough call.

What a joke.*

I think you are missing the point. It isn’t a comparison of prejudice, but highlighting the illogical inconsistencies in saying that a man can identify as a woman but a white person cannot identify as black.

The rachel case turns on its facts a bit as she could pass as black without doing anything. If a white person put on black make up and said they felt black, this would be derided as offensive. A man can don womanface and it’s fine though. Shrug.