Is BLM a trojan horse?

I'm with you Ygrittesnow, i don't get drawn in unless its a constructive discussion. I think observe and research, sometimes this is frustrating as I often go off and find relevant facts and statistics but nowhere to share them, people dont want to engage with actual facts and figures.
I didn't even put up a black square, i prefer to read the smallprint before i agree to ideologies, and choose my own ways to engage.

Ah so issues with Trans is actually issues with the 'liberal left'? I'm thankful all your views are coming out. Very thankful and I do hope it is all over twitter or where ever. As I have said you havd done your cause no favours

I'm not sure if you engaging me? Perhaps you should quote and copy the post you want to engage with.

I've been a life long political campaigner across various issues. A labour party member and so on.....but have become quite radically disenchanted with what passes for progressive politics these days.

I have no longer have a party political alignment; in fact I spoil my ballot; no longer interested in narrow, automatic allegiance of any kind. I'm actually more interested in patterns and movements in the collective, and also in symbolism - a kind of wider angle view.

@Thinkking that is a great post. What you describe is happening right here on MN at present. I have had to leave a series of threads currently running in AIBU as I just couldn't bear it any longer.

You say "And somehow, you - I mean me, when I've been in these circles - start feeling worse and worse about yourself, and get drawn into desperately enforcing the rules on everyone else too"

I don't feel that way. I start to feel defiant and uncaring of the matter at hand and don't want to engage with it because the moment I get it "wrong" I will slammed and shamed. So I withdraw and observe but do nothing more as it feels pointless. No one learns through being hammered and humiliated do they? Isn't that the first rule of effective education?

Yes, and all the while the roots of racism - any "ism" that holds itself as beyond question, in fact - go unchallenged and un-dealt-with. We crusade against hatred, ignoring the hatred inside ourselves. This is not popular, but it lies at the heart of a psychological approach to human behaviour, and the solution is always one that has to start at the individual level first, imo

Good post!

After years of intense involvement with the 1980's Peace Movement, and other justice movements, I realised that the journey towards equality, inclusion and respect for all had to begin within.

Let me tell you the peace movement was not very peaceful, and people engaged with it were suffering from the same issues, conflicts and darkness that every other person does. Just being a 'member' of a justice movement does not make you, automatically immune, from prejudice and shadow.

In fact, the shadow is most often projected onto others; onto other groups....and then resisted.

I very much doubt the vast majority of Britons are in agreement with that. I myself support abolishing short prison sentences in favour of community service and shorter sentences for non-violent, non-sexual crimes, plus better prison conditions, but that's as far as I go, and I'm more to the left than even most Britons who vote Labour.

Yep, me too.

I like the nonces, wife beaters, rapists and serial killers locked up, ta very much.

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This little bit of misinformation is interesting: www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-more-protection-for-black-trans-women-uk

Nearly 100k people have signed their names to this guff because no one seems to dare think critically and/or fact check any more.

They’ve rushed to sign it because issues relating to racism and police brutality are (rightly) all over the present discourse but none of the ‘facts‘ are real so they are just undermining the credibility of the movements they claim to support.

I'm talking about the numerous Trans threads on MN which take one stance. Where no one is allowed a different one

Wrong! There is much disagreement, often quite heated on this board. I know, because a few times I've been at the sharp end of it. stop generalising. It is too simplistic. And only leads to alienation from the greater good.

Read through the posts. Some are clearly anti BLM. You are showing your cause no favours. It has outed some very very dubious views

nobody here has ever said that black people do not deserve respect and dignity, and equal opportunities in life - as befits any human being. Naturally. what some have questioned is various dogmas and positions, and also what may be passing in under the radar of this particular social justice movement.

What you seem to be seeking is total compliance, and the oppression of thought and speech, unless it accords with a particular form of group think of which you approve.

@Thinkingg you're describing a purity spiral, there's a good podcast on BBC Sounds featuring a notorious example that engulfed the world of online knitting communities.

I've found this thread really interesting because I was also uncomfortable with the trans movement piggy backing onto the movement.

Something I've felt weird about asking isn't regarding the trans issue but its just what solutions are the BLM movement looking for? At first I thought it was protesting the police brutality in the states, then I had understood it to raise awareness of the issues BAME people go through in their lives living in countries that are predominantly white. What can we as a society and as individuals do? The only response I've had was to check my privilege. Okay I do completely understand that I'll never get what its like to suffer racism. My country is 95% white and I never laid eyes on a black person not on tv until I was late in my 20s when I went to work near London, but what practical solutions have been proposed? How can we help and how can we as a country change things so they are fairer to all?

I honestly feel like I'll be shouted down as a racist for asking these things but without dialogue I dont see how things can change.

But it is very some posters on here have rudimentary views on race

Exactly! Very simplistic. Such as automatic white privilege, and automatic black oppression.

Many of us here have been around the block more than a few times, and are no longer young and naive.......We've been engaged in leftist type and liberation struggles of many kinds....so please don't assume anything.

The oppression is system-wide not a contained, discrete set of problems in a specific place.

I think your description is pretty spot on overall. What always strikes me though is related to what you say here, which is there is never really a mechanism that is described or elucidated for the transference of this systemic oppression. I think it's very telling that typically groups using this kind of analysis don't want to look too closely at statistics, too.

It's absolutely not grounded in material reality, and there isn't even much attempt to make it look like it is.

I have no idea what your view in Trans is. Enlighten me

That's odd, because the last few posts you have engaged in with me seem to have claimed that my view on "trans" is something you know about. Or could it be that, as now seems to be the pattern, you are stereotyping and projecting rather fixed views and positions on to certain groups?

So, for example, "Feminists who post on Mumsnet are all white, middle class and right wing and believe this....., especially about 'trans issues'....."; "White people are automatically privileged"; "black people are automatically oppressed", and so on.

I therefore wasn't surprised to discover, watching Priti Patel's statement to the House today, that the leadership of UKBLM and/or the organisers of the London demos last weekend had not provided any points of contact for the police. As any demo organiser will tell you, this is the thing that best prevents things getting out of hand and the overall org getting the blame for the violent few.

The long-standing arm of UK Black Lives Matter decided not to organise protests due to covid. The protests were therefore organised on twitter essentially by brand new groupings, as far as I understand. They don't really seem to have an established leadership or core organisers in the way most demos would.

UKBLM uses the same wording to describe itself as the US org - as shown in the description on its GoFundMe page:

uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

Our commitment to all black lives means that we lift up the experiences of the most marginalised in our communities, including but not limited to working class queer, trans, undocumented, disabled, Muslim, sex workers, women/non-binary, HIV+ people.

It's also explicit that a main aim is anti-carceral and that it seeks to dismantle police forces:

Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police.

I very much doubt the vast majority of Britons are in agreement with that. I myself support abolishing short prison sentences in favour of community service and shorter sentences for non-violent, non-sexual crimes, plus better prison conditions, but that's as far as I go, and I'm more to the left than even most Britons who vote Labour.

I therefore wasn't surprised to discover, watching Priti Patel's statement to the House today, that the leadership of UKBLM and/or the organisers of the London demos last weekend had not provided any points of contact for the police. As any demo organiser will tell you, this is the thing that best prevents things getting out of hand and the overall org getting the blame for the violent few.

There are plenty of anti-racist orgs and activists who do not base their work on liberatarian anarchism, critical theory and queer theory. All of these things are antithetical to materialist feminism, so, frankly, I would prefer to direct my support to those otheractivists and orgs.
Ask yourself this question: if Linda Bellos offered her support and spokesperson services to UKBLM and Munro Bergdorf or Travis Alabanza decreed the terven weren't allowed - do you think we'd see Linda welcomed? Because I think the answer is unpalatable but obvious.

UKBLM isn't a Trojan horse. It is exactly what it says it is - the anti-racist wing of libertarian anarchism and critical theory in the UK. It isn't the only anti-racism available.

I've been thinking a lot about this today, based on this thread. I don't want racism to continue, the experiences many black folks describe are awful.

Yet what is being presented as "the antiracist movement" - at least the most vocal part on social media, appears more and more cult-like to me. And I'd extend that to many discussions of feminism and LGBT and disability rights, but again only a certain style of it. I'm sure someone has analysed this before me and there are actual words for what I'm trying to describe...!

There are rules of engagement. The oppressed class has the right to say whatever they want on the matter of their oppression, and is always right over the oppressor, because they have lived experience. The oppression is system-wide not a contained, discrete set of problems in a specific place. The oppressor class feel guilty or defensive. However, they are told not to discuss their feelings: "it's not about you". They are told that silence in an oppressive system is complicity, so they must take action. They must step into the fight, rather than observing and reflecting. Often if they disagree with a point they are impatiently told to "educate themselves", rather than it leading to debate and discussion. This vague instruction may be accompanied by a reading list. Anyone who rejects the rules of engagement is told to educate themselves, or is defined as a racist/ misogynist/ homophobe/ transphobe and rejected from the discussion.

Since almost everyone is an oppressor on some axis, this emotive, thought-deadening process gets applied to each individual at some point. On any discussion where you have lived experience you have the right to be forthright, angry, or insightful - elsewhere you do what you are told. And somehow, you - I mean me, when I've been in these circles - start feeling worse and worse about yourself, and get drawn into desperately enforcing the rules on everyone else too.

I know this is a gross oversimplification of these movements. And I know that each individual element seems to have a logical reason for it - of course a black person has the right to be angry about racism - of course a disabled person shouldn't be expected to spend hours explaining disability rights to everyone who asks when they could just go read an article.

But it's... seeming more and more weird to me, I guess. Especially when I see myself starting to do it, and how it overrides my natural instinct to assume the best in everyone, to give the benefit of the doubt, to use overcomplicated British paragraphs rather than snide Americanized catchphrases. It worries me.

Ah so issues with Trans is actually issues with the 'liberal left'? I'm thankful all your views are coming out. Very thankful and I do hope it is all over twitter or where ever. As I have said you havd done your cause no favours

Wait, so you are saying that everyone has to agree with the particular intellectual frameworks of liberalism in 2020, or somehow they are Beyond the Pale.

That seems rather narrow.

Smile, do you have any views of your own, or do you just snipe?

Yes, all this is true. But a human rights approach is a comprehensible starting point for people who would like an alternative to critical race theory.

Oh, yes, it certainly could be.
I'm a bit confused about who was posting what now, but I think way back my point was just that this tendency to take certain abstract concepts or certain language as essential is a problem overall.

I suppose all feminists think women should have the same rights as men. (And that women are therefore not men or there would be no need for feminism as we'd all be the same) Not sure how that "cause" has been harmed

I wasn't aware we had a "cause"

The incessant tone policing of the liberal left is toxic. People who are afraid to say what they think are never going to liberate themselves or anyone else.

This

agree 2rebecca

I am not sure how many British black families would agree with the statements on the BLM website. Or indeed how many people in general.

Supporting the cause of trying to overhaul centuries of racism doesn't mean that we have to sign up to the random musings of these particular activists on a whole range of matters.

I wouldn't bring this up at a BLM march because I wouldn't want to divert attention and a march is all about one message. But I would bring it up in a place where you are allowed to discuss things with nuance and where you ought to be able to assume all contributors are discussing things in good faith. Twitter is clearly not that place - hopefully MN can be that place - not just on this issue but on a whole range of issues.

‘Possibly, but you aware that it is a theoretical system, and one where there is real disagreement and discussion about what it means, how it works, how it should be used?
And that there is even a serious academic argument about whether it's an effective approach at all or justified conceptually?
That doesn't mean people who have these ideas are bigots.’

Yes, all this is true. But a human rights approach is a comprehensible starting point for people who would like an alternative to critical race theory.