Is BLM a trojan horse?

@stripesgalore In the UK then, is there structural racial oppression, that is not accidental? What is it and who benefits?

There isn’t anything subconscious or unconscious about holding someone for 8 minutes so that they suffocate. It’s just torture.

There isn’t anything subconscious or unconscious about putting a minor who hasn’t been found guilty in prison for three years. It is a human rights abuse.

Systemic and structural oppression is largely a consequence of institutions and individuals who are in positions of power who stand to directly benefit financially and personally from someone else’s misery. It is not some accidental subconscious problem that is going to be dealt with by sixteen year old white girls with no power reading White Fragility and posting black screens on Instagram.

Someone asked about the mechanism for systematic racism a while back. I guess one theory is that it is maintained by subconscious racism, transmitted between people by their upbringing, the media they consume, etc. Maybe the "educate yourself" is a plea to white people to try to reduce unconscious bias, which cumulatively adds up to produce structural racism.

Which then leads to the question, does it work? What are effective means of reducing implicit bias?

Yes, after posting that I was thinking about the number of people I know aren’t actually able to read a book.

Whenever someone says you must read this book, the point often seems to be to indoctrinate rather than to educate

To indoctrinate or to dismiss? Because realistically, a lot of adults don't read that much, especially 'serious' books and non-fiction. And if every campaign for change gives you a reading list before you can join the debate, where would you find the time? I guess the actual effect is a lot of people just won't engage.

I really don't think it's helpful to suggest that everyone is a racist deep down inside. Most people don't have time for political analysis and intellectual thinking, and they aren't going around thinking of ways they can be racist today. They want to get on with their life, have a decent job and a good future for their children. And they usually wish the same for other people as well.

It's important to remember historical events and people in their unvarnished truth. There is certainly more than can be done to raise awareness and acceptance of the role things like slavery and prejudice played in shaping our societies and economies.

I disagree with the popular narrative that we all have to be turning ourselves inside out and repent our 'sins', when there's no actual concrete definition of what these racist sins are.

Would you be interested in watching the video that I posted above and sharing your thoughts on it?

I don’t think it is a case of until there is a clear agenda I am not going to stand up to racism, it is a case of if there were a clearer agenda I could stand up to racism more effectively.

If somebody asked me what needed to be accomplished to reduce misogyny, I could immediately start saying things right now that could be done to change things for women. None of them involve initially going on about male privilege, saying I’m not going to educate you, it’s all systemic or whatever.

Likewise I have recently watched the Netflix documentary about the prison system and black people in the US. There were people stating what the problems are and how that system can be changed. The call in the US for police defunding in mental health cases - that seems an practical idea and we already do many of the things requested through defunding in the U.K. The video shared on here talking about mentoring schemes - another practical step forward.

If black people want to say it is not my job to educate, fine. But plenty of people supporting the current movement aren’t black. But the answers they are giving is read this book etc. If some white people are so well educated on this (having social science degrees etc) are they not able to summarise the main important points and what action should be taken? If someone is educated they should understand something well enough to explain in their own words. Whenever someone says you must read this book, the point often seems to be to indoctrinate rather than to educate.

Bah! Pressed post too soon.

Take two...

stumbledin the word racist and racism are very strong words. They mean very specific things with a specific connotation. We seem to be living in an era where such labels, which were once very important words, are thrown around with abandon, thereby watering down the

This is going back to my post late last night and some responses to it.

Yes in the 60s there were some groups who formulated ideas and even had manifestos. But by and large the change that happened was because individuals chose to start living a different life. Some gave up on it and went back to conformity and some didn't.

And yet again, BLM is not trade marked. In response to a group calling itself BLM UK saying they did not support public protests individuals spontaneously started organising events through facebook etc..

So instead of sitting on the sidelines sniping at those who are organising, it might be more progressive to think how gender critical feminists could be part of the movement for change.

The situation with Antifa in the US is not the same as happening hear.

But for someone to say unless and until they are provided with a written manifesto that they are not going to take part or even examine themselves, as Goosefoot has said, just illustrates what BLM is about. It isn't just about institutional racism in the police but in all of us and starting to make change. That is why it is 60s politics. ie the personal is political.

Who at this point in history would want to be remembered as the one who said until there is a clear agenda I am not going to stand against racism.

And if anyone watched In Limbo last nights thinks that somehow the UK is better than the US is just mistaken. But perhaps an indication of who little some of us feel we need to be bothered is that in telly addicts section only about 10 mumsnetters seem to have watched it. British history isn't just the overt example of for instance Coulston but the institutions we turn a blind eye to, that run our country.

....and this really isn't a perfect analogy, I know, or even a very good one. But I am trying to get across that dismissing an entire movement because one of the many, many organisations involved has - for the moment - bowed down to the current misogyny and homophobia of the TRAs, in the entirely mistaken belief that they are somehow being progressive by doing so, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I don't know - I feel like this is in the end worrying about what onlookers will think of the discussion. Which does worry me, but I think it is a dead end, socially, politically, and morally.
Most posters have at least begun by saying they didn't think the metaphor was quite right, but then looking in more detail about what might be behind the discomfit expressed in the OP, or what they thought would be a more accurate way to describe it. And I would say there are, even among hose who agreed that there was some sort of problem with the movement, some disagreement or different ways of thinking about that.
Apart from people throwing around accusations without engaging it's really been a good discussion with some interesting ideas and I think, at least for me, it's expanded the field of my thinking and also allowed me to articulate my thoughts a bit better. Plus I really quite enjoyed the video Nonnymouse posted, even though the participants weren't necessarily from the same place on the political spectrum as I am.

That this has effectively squashed any oxygen out of feminist discussion on MN. And that you clearly have supporters who would walk hand in hand with Tommy Robinson

Oxygen implies being able to breathe freely...which in the context of discussion implies an airing of various views, experiences and a discussion as to objectives and solutions to various problems or conflicts. You seem not to want that. you seem to be seeking compliance with your particular view; and in doing that you are making hyperbolic and ridiculous accusations in order to back up your own prejudices.

Colour blindness is not a thing

This comment would suggest, that, you believe racism to be inevitable, then...because people will always note and judge others purely or primarily on the basis of their skin colour or other racial features.

If colour blindness can never be "a thing" - what is your solution to the problems you see? You see, what I see is someone making judgments on the basis of skin colour alone. Isn't that the main definition of racism.

I'm an hour into listening to this. I'm impressed so far by the thoughtful and articulate viewpoints throughout the discussions, including any disagreements.

Is anyone from the BLM movement camp able to articulate in a similar manner what is wrong or incorrect about the points being made in the video? It would be great to see a genuine and intellectual dialogue between the differing viewpoints.

I know I'm being annoying in posting the video repeatedly, and I get that it's over an hour long and not everyone has the time, but it's rare to stumble on an engaging discussion like the one in the video. It's given me a lot of food for thought.

I totally get you Annie - I think that the Trojan Horse analogy was the wrong one - at the same time, I do worry about Antifa's success in taking over so many social movements. I also used to worry about the SWP and agree with your assessment of them. In fact, it would not surprise me if there was crossover membership amongst older male members.

I think that's a reasonable assessment - but when you are talking about a movement, it's like equating the Poll Tax riots or the anti-cuts marches, or the Don't Invade Iraq marches, exclusively with, I dunno, Socialist Worker. The SWP made every effort to dominate the narrative, dominate the visuals (all those placards with SWP slogans on them, handed out in their tens of thousands who had no bloody idea who the SWP were but who wanted a placard) and yet in the end the SWP were a bunch of useless, controlling, cult-like rape-apologists (and outright rapists) who when you look a bit more closely, you would naturally run from. You wouldn't post "is the antiwar movement a trojan horse for rapists?" You might post "jesus fuck, look at these fucking rape-apologists jumping on the bandwaggon, and people not realising how awful they are".

....and this really isn't a perfect analogy, I know, or even a very good one. But I am trying to get across that dismissing an entire movement because one of the many, many organisations involved has - for the moment - bowed down to the current misogyny and homophobia of the TRAs, in the entirely mistaken belief that they are somehow being progressive by doing so, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Mmmmm ... I think it is more about a rethinking of what has happened. I do happen to have more connection with TRA Antifa types than I really want and I suspect that what might have happened is a 'taking over' of some elements of the BLM movement by those who have a bigger picture of Antifa ideology guiding them. That's what I've tried to say with my 'Troy, not Trojan Horse' comments. I think it is pretty similar to what has happened to some feminist and old-style LGBT orgs.

Then argh, I wish Thingybob had taken a moment to think about this before posting. It's not a good look. (And it's ridiculous.)

Thingybob is a well-known poster.

I haven't read the thread, and I'm not going to - I'm just going to answer the original post.

And my answer is FFS no, BLM is not a Trojan horse, don't be bloody ridiculous. BLM is a movement as well as a series of organisations, and any progressive movement is both bound to have a wide range of opinions within it, and also be subject to entryism. And BLM is an enormous movement, spanning many countries and god knows how many people, and will as a result encompass all sorts, from radfems to TRAs and everything in between, as well as countless people who have previously not considered this issue at all. We know this already.

I do wonder if this OP has been posted with a mischievous intent in mind to provide misogynist twitter with a few choice "views" to screenshot.

Smile, I do not see the automatic link between black and trans.

Nor the automatic link between a slogan and effective action.

I am quite goal orientated. You seem more righteous. With BLM my approach would be: there appears to be a problem; what is this problem; what are the causes; what might be an effective solution; how might we get to that solution.

Ditto with trans. What is the problem? What are effective solutions? (Here I personally do not think medicating minors, or denying vulnerable women single sex spaces, or denying female athletes the chance of a level playing field are effective solutions.) The #nodebate from Stonewall has led to a confusion where I am not sure many understand the underlying problem that needs to be solved. All we hear is TWAW and are then shut down when we try to explore the issue. The real learning the BLM movement might take, is that they need societal change, and to achieve that they need to engage the wider society. I want to return to Iceland, have pleasant exchanges when needed (last time over the price of bin liners - the cashier let me have them for the lower of the two possible prices, even though I had assumed the higher) and not notice what colour people are. I want more equality, but then again including white people suffering deprivation. I want a more equal society with proper respect for everyone.

Really? Or perhaps the radical feminists who fight against Trans whilst ignoring all other fights...and as we have seen on this thread some have outed themselves to have outwardly racist views

Fighting to protect women's & girls spaces is the main object for me...because they are required and valued. I have no fight with people who want to 'identify' as anything they like, as long as they don't impose on the dignity, comfort and safety of my sex. Sex is real. It is something you are born with. It resides in the body and the DNA.

Honest question. What is your view on trans racialism? Can one actually become black if one was not born black? Does it matter if someone claims to be black if they are white? If so, why does it matter?

Hi Smile, let's take this opportunity to centre the voices of black people.

Let's start with this video.

How about we have a discussion on the points raised by the people in the video?