Alexandra Heminsley book

PaleBlueMoonlight that’s a really useful synopsis on toilets, thank you. Perhaps eep will find it helpful too.

I work in research. We look at research done globally.

“Done globally”?

To continue the massive detail about toilets...

Men are a threat to women (and to other men). Single sex spaces allow women space away from men. This helps lesson the possibility of assault (e.g. there is significantly more sexual assault in mixed sex changing villages than in single sex changing rooms), but perhaps more importantly when it comes to toilets (in the UK at least) single sex toilets provide an everyday single sex space where women can be sure (or should be able to be sure) that men are not present, allowing them to maintain privacy and dignity when they are vulnerable because of their physical body.

This thread is good on toilets: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

Clara Greed is also good on toilets.

Of course their are plenty of places in the world where women really are at risk of sexual assault by men just because they are going to the toilet, which is why the UN
advocates for single sex toilets for women, prescribing their layout down to setting out how entrances should be oriented in order to reduce the risks to women.

Unpleasant behaviour by men towards women doesn't have to amount to sexual assault to be very negative for women - voyeurism, harassment, intimidation for example (think of the epidemic of cameras in loos in South Korea just for kick off), but much of it is difficult prove, many women would feel silly about being bothered by it and most women would just get out of there as soon as possible. Just the presence of a man in a woman's space could be a red flag, On the basis that that man clearly doesn't understand boundaries.

The question for me that really need answering are, why do we have single sex loos in the first place and what advantage is there to women in opening up their loos to any man ho wishes to use them?

Bathroom fears have also been used against other civil rights causes, in the fight to end segregation of white and black people and in the divert for gender equality.

It's more than a little racist to bring people of colour into this. It trivialises what black people went through (and still go through) to compare the civil rights movement to this absurd quest for "gender equality."
Except here's the thing, toilets are sex segregated, not by gender - gender is irrelevant.
Black people were campaigning for equal rights. Not extra rights - which is what you are saying men should have by arguing they should be able to use women's toilets.

In her essay she spoke about women being at risk from trans women in bathrooms. This isn’t a thing. It’s an anti trans trope.

Tell that to the little girl who was sexually assaulted by a transwomen in a toilet in Scotland.

Don’t worry about my post eep it’s rhetorical really

I know saying that doesn’t make her transphobic

Thought id look again at the essay, found this

I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined. Trans people need and deserve protection

So this makes JKR transphobic…yeah?

(On my keyboard it has a key for … how awesome is that!)

Hey Eep

Would you be able to share your understanding of the definition of the terms you've used in the sentence " Cis women and transgender women are mostly at risk from cis men."

Because what I understand from many trans lobbying groups here in the UK 'transgender women' certainly does include 'any man who believes or feels he’s a woman' as JKR states.

And those who identify as transgender women don't even have to feel like they're a woman on every day of the week (see Pips Bunce).

And as transgender women are, by dint of the very definition, males, at what stage do they transition from being in the 'high risk to women as cis men' group, to 'at high risk from cis men' group?

Is it their verbal declaration of being 'not cis'?

Is it something they wear?

Something they do?

I'm intrigued to know this transitioning stage, so us women can know the difference between cis men and transgender women.

And 'cis woman'? Does that mean any woman who strays outside the gender stereotypes expected of a 'woman' is less likely to be at risk from 'cis men'?

Eep, could you answer the questions for your English audience?
By the way, the “cis” word isn’t normally used here. If you look at the pinned rules at the top of the board, you will see if can get you banned.

EEP
With respect, I think you have misunderstood the point being made by JKR in your quote. My interpretation of that sentence is that she is saying that women are potentially more at risk from men, not transwomen, by relaxing the requirements around self ID. As men with bad intentions will misuse any vulnerability to get to women they wish to abuse or attack.

Hi Eep, you got me again. There was that JKR reference higher up the thread, 08/06/2020 08:12, two months before you responded to it
I’m on my phone and clearly bad on my English comprehension.,.

Apologies Eep, I didn’t recall the bathroom reference. It’s not a word normally used in the UK.
But you haven’t explained how being concerned about men entering women’s spaces (changing rooms is definitely a word we use in the UK, or the example I gave, prisons) is transphobic? Note I said men above not trans people.

Here in the UK we have the NHS which should fully cover transition medical costs (no copays) and an existing process for updating birth certificates which is the legal basis of an individual’s sex in law. The legal process costs a max of £140.
Everyone going through that process has protection in law, both before and after the paperwork is complete.
Almost every poster I have seen on Mumsnet agrees with this.

The UK has been moving to a self-id model for sex (but not nationality, age, disability or ethnicity).
Many people in the UK think self-id carries some risks that should be quantified and evaluated.
In the UK we know self id has already led to sexual assaults in our usually relatively safe prisons, of women prisoners. And according to the then prisons minister, of guards.
JKR has written very polite words about quantifying the impact of legal change in the UK.

The US is a very different place and I know trans rights there are lower.

EEP, I work in a school.
There is this thing called safeguarding. It's to stop sexual predators slipping through loopholes. Nobody complains that school safeguarding practices are 'volunteerphobic' because volunteers who want to hep read with the DC etc have to be checked out carefully first.

If you let anyone who says he is a woman into the ladies lavs and changing rooms, you are giving sexual predators a loophole a mile wide. It's not remotely transphobic to point this out.

And I am not a ciswoman, btw. I am a woman.

She didnt say transwomen is what i meant

I suppose she couldn’t say bogs...but I don’t know whats wrong with toilets

Thank you eep

Although that does Seem like she means actual men...

“When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.”

Are you saying that people in Scotland are more likely to commit sexual assaults than those in the US?

I work in research. We look at research done globally.

C’mon eep I’m fucking lazy and dont want to read the essay again

I mean its good and all...its just hot and I’m tired

Hi Eep, JKR never said a single thing about “bathrooms“. She’s English, lives in Scotland. Your US slide isn’t relevant!

“I can’t understand why else an educated woman would think anything JKR has said is transphobic. Even if you think TWAW, which is already a failure of critical thinking, JK hasn’t actually said anything in opposition to the rights and needs of trans people.”

In her essay she spoke about women being at risk from trans women in bathrooms

Did she?

I honestly missed that

Can you quote please

[quote JoodyBlue]@EEP1989 I am not trying to be goady. But could you give me an example. I really am struggling to see where she has been transphobic. I would really appreciate it. Please not a link to a long essay picking her comments apart. Just something straight forward that is transphobic so I can see where the issue lies.[/quote]
In her essay she spoke about women being at risk from trans women in bathrooms. This isn’t a thing. It’s an anti trans trope. Cis women and transgender women are mostly at risk from cis men.

Bathroom fears have also been used against other civil rights causes, in the fight to end segregation of white and black people and in the divert for gender equality.

The anti trans bathroom hysteria started in Houston, USA where it was used to scare people into voting against a LGBTQ nondiscrimination law.

Changes to laws to allow transgender women to use women’s bathrooms hasn’t increased sexual assault.

Article on it:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2016/5/5/11592908/transgender-bathroom-laws-rights

EEP, Can I add to the question Jan asked?
No one on this thread mentioned JKR.
Then completely out of the blue, as a part of a post that was apparently a response to Judith’s “I wonder what she really thinks”, you mentioned JKR.
Why did you think JKR was relevant to a thread about a completely different author?

The second part of my comment was addressing the thread as a whole and disagreeing with the commenters who believe JKR isn’t transphobic. JKR is transphobic.

Care to clarify why you think JKR is transphobic? Or is merely having a grasp of basic biology enough these days?
On a related note, what exactly is it that you think makes transwomen women exactly?