What's the feminist take on affairs?

powershoweronthehour - "I think affairs are unfeminist in a similar way to porn- because they promote a view of women as objects for the use of men- "his bit on the side" "his piece" "his latest bit of skirt" "son cinq à sept" - as if the female affair partner is an accessory like a new set of golf clubs."

I find this a very strange take. As if the OW has no agency.

The descriptions you give are views of the OW, not of women in general. They would not apply to wives, for example.

Who promotes those views of the OW? They sound archetypal "male gaze".

Feathered - in your OP you posit an affair involving a married man and a woman:

"Do you think a woman who has an affair with a married man can be a feminist?"

There seems to be an assumption that:

a) the man is married to a woman

b) the woman involved in the affair is single.

Would the woman be any more or less a feminist if:

a) the man was married to another man?

b) the woman was married

• to a man?
• to another women?

c) the woman had an affair with a woman who was married

• to a man?
• to another woman?

If "feminism" were relevant in one scenario (circumstance) then it should surely be relevant in all possible situations?

I guess the female affair partner can't help sometimes being viewed as an accessory when she is actually doing it for her own gratification,

I'm not sure this is a feminist thing so much as a human nature thing. People often see others as a sort of supporting role in their own life, or from their own perspective. The man in an affair, or his wife, might see the woman as mainly an accessory, but then she, or her family, might look at it from the opposite perspective.

I think the notion of them sisterhood' is too often used as a stick to beat woman with, in the name of feminism, when it actually isn't very feminist.

To me feminism isn't about supporting, agreeing with, liking all women. It is about ending inequality between men and women.

So affairs aren't in themselves a feminist issue, but the language and consequences around them are.

It should be equally as acceptable/unacceptable for a married woman and man to have an affair.

It should be equally as acceptable/unacceptable to me the other man or woman.

How acceptable/unacceptable these things are, to me, are moral issue. As long as their is equality in the opinions and treatment of these individuals then I don't think an actual affair is a feminist issue.

Re the porn comparison...hmm perhaps you are right...I guess the female affair partner can't help sometimes being viewed as an accessory when she is actually doing it for her own gratification, gets the "deal" she wants and doesn't get gaslit and strung along with the "I'll leave my wife for you over the next rainbow" promises. (Obviously not all female affair partners are desperate for the man to dump his wife and live happily ever after with them...some might be happy having their part time lover/shag...but it's still being complicit in a lie. It's not an ethically produced shag, usually- another woman has to be lied to for the shag to happen).

I think by degraded it meant how the cheating spouse is treating her. As less important and as less of a person than himself.

i don't think affairs are anything like porn and the examples given "bit on the side" etc is a rather misogynistic take on it.

I'm really perplexed by the comment that the wife who is cheated on is "degraded" - how does the poor conduct of 2 other people degrade her? Who sees her as "degraded"? If anyone is degraded surely it's the cheat.

If anything isn't that the role a cheated husband might play? There's no female equivalent of cuckold.

I think affairs are unfeminist in a similar way to porn- because they promote a view of women as objects for the use of men- "his bit on the side" "his piece" "his latest bit of skirt" "son cinq à sept" - as if the female affair partner is an accessory like a new set of golf clubs.

That's one trope, another is the husband stealing woman who is clearly much less passive. Or the wronged woman.

There are a variety because there are all kinds of situations affairs spring from. I'd not say that they reduce women as a whole to one particular type of thing.

It's a feminist issue because women often seem to get blamed for affairs (even if the woman is otherwise unattached).

This!

There was a horrendous case of this narrative going public a few years ago here in Switzerland: a corporate CEO committed suicide, and the story - according to much of the public discourse - went about like so (with only minute amounts of hyperbole for the sake of brevity):

[Deceased] was a very happy and successful man. Wife, kids, home, car ... basically bliss. The he met young Jezebel [the OW], who led him astray and estranged him from his happy family life - which made him so sad that he eventually saw no other way out than to end it all.

With a heavy dose of morally, albeit not legally, the poor man may have been killed by the evil temptress.

This was one of the defining moments in my own understanding of misogyny and I've seldom been so taken aback by the appalling attitudes of people I knew and regarded as generally sane up to that point.

As for the general point: no, I don't think having an affair with a married man is anti-feminist as such. It's more of an interpersonal than a class level issue. I also don't buy into the solidarity line of reasoning - but then that's because I'm not remotely convinced that marriage and the nuclear family are particularly good ideas for women to start with. Yes, marriage might be a bit of a legal safety net in some respects, but then, I'd also really rather not break a leg than having to rely on the fact that I've got great accident insurance.

I suppose I feel that the difference between it being about feminism (rather than another political movement) is that it is not only betraying the wife but it is also condoning the behaviour of the husband, who is putting a woman - his wife - in a vulnerable and unpleasant position. It degrades that woman. If the affair is prolonged then that degradation is extended.
It's interesting that you see the wife as the person who is degraded. Why is that?

The Feminist view examines and deconstructs social and legal attitudes toward affairs and infidelity in general. Men have insisted for many many years that they are not by nature monogamous, while women are, and therefore all the systems men put in place judge the actions of men and women based on that underlying myth.

I think affairs are unfeminist in a similar way to porn- because they promote a view of women as objects for the use of men

My take on that is to say affairs are conducted by women (her cheating on own husband or with married man) for the purpose of her own sexual gratification.

Porn, however is to do with money exchanging hands so some, a small percentage of women will benefit financially and sexually but there is a huge market for exploitation there, where women simply lose out and only men gain.

Do agree with the rest of your post though powershower

There isnt a feminist stance on affairs. We disagree on many things but as far as I am aware there isnt one in regards to spousal infidelity.

Oh yes also as CayrolBaaskin says- the trope of women as wicked husband stealers/ homewreckers +/- gold diggers is damaging to women as a class too.

I think affairs are unfeminist in a similar way to porn- because they promote a view of women as objects for the use of men- "his bit on the side" "his piece" "his latest bit of skirt" "son cinq à sept" - as if the female affair partner is an accessory like a new set of golf clubs.

Also because the affair partner is aiding and abetting shitty behaviour taking advantage of the wife, who is part of the sex class that is typically more financially vulnerable and may have to put up with the shit.

So yeah the personal is political. Not saying that having an affair bars you from ever being able to call yourself a feminist ever again but it's like somebody banging on about being vegan in every facebook post and getting angry about factory farming but stuffing in a battery farmed chicken burger from the drive thru when nobody is watching* - hypocritical

*note I don't think many vegans actually do this! The ones I know stick to their principles I think.

Having an affair with another women's husband isn't really anything to do with feminism. It might be hurtful to that wife (who the OW may or may not know) but its not hurtful to women as a whole. Each affair has its own circumstances and culpability but its nothing to do with feminism. If anything the old misogynist trope of the OW being a wicked husband stealer tempting the poor defenceless man away is the only feminist issue here. Blame men for their bad actions and drop the double standards.

it's not top on the list of feminist issues, but I do think feminism has to be about solidarity and sisterhood, therefore to have an affair with a married man is a betrayal of another woman, with whom you have more in common than with the man
all the bullshit about the relationship being over etc etc will just be bullshit and a feminist should recognise that and not be taken in by it
we make choices in our personal lives and we should consider the wider implications of our choices, like how they will impact other people, in this case the wife and especially the children
it is very analagous to buying street drugs- you may not be personally harmed by them, and the person you buy them off may be a small independent business, but you are endorsing an international trade that is deeply harmful

I think this OP is specifically referring to women who have sex with married men knowing they're married, which is a bit of a sexist stereotype used a lot in films etc.

It's shitty, but some shitty people can call themselves feminists I suppose. The feminist angle I suppose would be why do so many men cheat on their wives?

Let's not forget that there are some men people who pretend they are single in order to cheat, so the affair partner might be entirely innocent and might in fact be a 'victim' themselves.

Idk I think it’s pretty common for the other person to say that they should tell their spouse they are cheating, Implying they are a jerk for lying.

You could be right, maybe especially if the person would prefer them to leave their spouse.

Personally, I think the answer is 'no comment'. Infidelity is a nasty thing to do to someone (female or male) but it isn't in itself a form of oppression.

I believe that more men cheat than women do, too. Which is a result of male entitlement and privilege.

I think this graph is extremely interesting when exploring that question.

I'm afraid that it is from the Institute for Family Studies, which is a think tank rather than an academic group (i.e. they have an agenda) but my subscriptions don't extend to purely psychological academic journals so I wasn't able to fully explore the peer reviewed research.

ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

Almost condoning it, because who has an affair with someone while telling them they are a jerk for cheating?

Idk I think it’s pretty common for the other person to say that they should tell their spouse they are cheating, Implying they are a jerk for lying.

The point you make about a stolen Tv is a nice analogy. I wouldn’t personally be interested In doing it. However I still think 95% of the blame goes to the thief, not the pawn shop owner or whatever. And still contextual. I wouldn’t blame anyone having an affair with someone in a forced marriage for example.

www.bbc.co.uk/archive/second-wave-feminism/zdhw382

Thanks, Maybe. Looks fascinating and I've bookmarked it.

So “the other” woman (or man) has very little they are doing wrong. If it weren’t for them, the person would still cheat with someone.

It's a bit like buying a hot television, or black market cigarettes, I think. You are enabling someone to do something wrong, and so to some extent participating in it, and knowingly ignoring that someone is being hurt or exploited. Almost condoning it, because who has an affair with someone while telling them they are a jerk for cheating?

It’s pretty adjacent issue and very contextual I think.

For example in some parts of the world there’s a good feminist argument that for women marriage = slavery because the woman has no choice in who she marries and cannot divorce. In those situations I feel affairs could even be considered a feminist choice. In the west often marriage is somewhere between that at completely free choice. Like there are still a lot of arranged marriages In the US and in other situations you have people staying in horrible situations because their partner controls the finances etc.

I think it’s a bit weird that OP focuses only on “the other woman” scenario as if women never have affairs with unattached men. For me the major betrayal Of an affair is the promise breaking, lying and secret keeping from the partner. So “the other” woman (or man) has very little they are doing wrong. If it weren’t for them, the person would still cheat with someone. I would wonder slightly at the choice of wanting to be with a liar, but if it’s casual I don’t see much wrong. So yeah if a woman has an affair she’s lying and breaking a promise just as if a man does it.

The question is always, what is sexual liberation - what is liberation at all?

Is liberation doing whatever you feel? Or whatever your body wants, or your emotions? What if that creates other kinds of boundaries? Is it liberation to take someone else's stuff, or tell lies, or be a shit to others? What does that mean for their liberation?