Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

Goosefoot I don’t profess to know what all black people think as I haven’t asked them all, but more importantly, when people talk about their experiences of oppression, the only correct response is to listen and let them lead the conversation, not tell them how they’re explaining it wrong. It’s possible to believe a class of people collectively has a problem while also being aware that not every individual in that class behaves the same way.

If you care about me or #blacklivesmatter, don't let @lorealparis get away with this.

This is MB’s final tweet at end of the rant. I think it reveals MB’s priorities.

This whole thread is full of racism. If you believe that men, as a class, are inherently oppressive and benefit from the subjugation of women, then surely it’s not a huge leap to understand that if you’re white, you are inherently benefiting from racist structures whether you like it or not. I’m white. I have zero issue with black people saying all white people are racist. I understand what they mean. Saying ‘not all white people’ is no different to ‘not all men’. If you find it offensive I would suggest the problem is with you, not MB or any other black person.

No, these ideas are not something that every person who is not a racist believes. Nor do all black people, or women, think that way.

This idea that there is only one correct way to think or talk about these things, and it's self-evident, is really quite toxic.

This whole thread is full of racism. If you believe that men, as a class, are inherently oppressive and benefit from the subjugation of women, then surely it’s not a huge leap to understand that if you’re white, you are inherently benefiting from racist structures whether you like it or not. I’m white. I have zero issue with black people saying all white people are racist. I understand what they mean. Saying ‘not all white people’ is no different to ‘not all men’. If you find it offensive I would suggest the problem is with you, not MB or any other black person.

But then it is shit of Loreal to use the very thing they dropped Munroe for, to score virtue signalling points later down the line.

A couple people have said this, but I really don't see it.

I don't think supporting BLM, or even the idea of systemic racism or white privilege (which I think can be unhelpful concepts in many cases,)are much like what MB said that resulted in being sacked.

None of those are saying that racism is in white people's dna, or that they invented exploitation and oppression, were the best at it through all of history, etc.

There is a huge gulf between those positions and that people don't seem to see it is concerning.

And the Royal Navy didn’t end it for benevolent reasons. Britain’s manufacturing was miles ahead and this was intended to dry up the competition.

Should this necessarily be a problem? A number of 'advances' in human society were and are done for selfish or strategic reasons, in addition to altruistic ones. Is it preferable to allow certain issues and practices to continue for decades or even centuries until the 'morally ideal' moment turns up? What if it never arrives? Finding broad support and agreement is difficult as humans will always have differing viewpoints and people have a tendency to look for what's in it for them.

I do get it. Bergdorf has a valid point about Loreal’s hypocrisy. But Bergdorf made it all about them. Not a single mention of George Floyd. All about Bergdorf. And Bergdorf has their own history of hypocrisy, telling women what being a woman is.

So, in my view, when two parties are both hypocritical, both narcissistically trying to advance their own ends, and forgetting the bigger issue at hand, it would be ideal if they both - L’Oréal and Bergdorf - just STFU.

NotBadConsidering you really don’t get it do you? Monroe was sacked by them because she spoke about their experience as a black person in a white world. They’ve then come out and acted woke and caring about black lives like they weren’t part of the problem. Monroe was rightfully angry and pointed this out.
Sharing your views on race divisions when you are in the middle of it is not ‘Saying Stupid things on social media’, yes Monroe was angry in her tweets but anyone who isn’t angry at the injustice in the world Is not paying enough attention.

Don’t try to silence people’s experiences ever but especially don’t attempt to silence a black persons experience on a day people have dedicated to listening to black experiences after the horror that has happened

I’ll do whatever I please. Bergdorf wants to tell L’Oréal to shut up. Bergdorf is telling L’Oréal to shut up because L’Oréal sacked Bergdorf from a cosmetics contract for saying stupid things on social media. Bergdorf wants to make this all about Bergdorf and equate such an event with the murder of a black man by police in America. But Bergdorf was “torn apart by the world’s press”. Give me a break. The world’s press?

So yeah, I don’t think Bergdorf’s experience of not being paid to advertise eye liner any more is worth listening to. Like I said, two narcissists arguing over Twitter.

The capacity to go about your business without being shot by police etc is not a privilege. It is everyone's right.

Yes, and "rights" are things that we're taught we all intrinsically have simply by virtue of being human; privilege in this context is could be defined as 'having an expectation that this right will be considered an objective fact rather than a social contract that the other party may or may not choose to comply with.'

As I say, there's discussion to be around what "human rights" means in practice. The situation in the States makes it clear that human rights are granted or withheld at the discretion of the oppressor class.

They should all just STFU really

I don’t think any black person, talking about their experiences as a black person and calling out hypocrisy should ‘STFU’ really.

Don’t try to silence people’s experiences ever but especially don’t attempt to silence a black persons experience on a day people have dedicated to listening to black experiences after the horror that has happened.

Monroe is absolutely right to be pissed off and no one should shout down her experience and tell her to shut up.

That's not bad! I'd prefer something a bit more specific but "passive progressive" covers all kinds of situations.

Is there a term yet for what firms like L'Oreal are doing now

I have heard the term "passive progressive" (a play on passive aggressive that I didn't understand the first few times I saw it written) bandied about. I quite like it.

It’s a race to the narcissistic, hypocritical bottom.

L’Oréal are hypocritical for narcissistically posting about race to earn themselves credit and Bergdorf is right to call it out.

But Bergdorf’s tweets don’t mention George Floyd at all. It’s all about them and L’Oréal, with Bergdorf’s own history of appropriation.

They should all just STFU really.

Is there a term yet for what firms like L'Oreal are doing now, where they're using the language of anti racism to sell mascara? That's what Bergdorf is really angry about, the hypocrisy of them sacking Bergdorf for saying basically the same things they're pretending to believe now.

I'm thinking a term like greenwashing, but for firms or organizations that are suddenly pretending to care about racism. Another more stark example would be the way multiple police forces in the US have been taking the knee with protestors or hugging them for photo ops and then firing rubber bullets and tear gas canisters at them a few hours later. It's the fact that it's not just dishonest, it's performative dishonesty designed to benefit the public image of the group being dishonest, that grates.

@DidoLamenting

You may want to do a cursory Google of some of those countries, their history and resources.

You posted a comment suggesting another poster was mistaken about the existence of slavery in Africa.

That wasn't what I implied although it may have been what you inferred

Are you happy to ignore or even deny the oppression of people of colour as long as it's done by people of colour?

These are MRA tactics. What are you talking about? Why am I ignoring or denying anything? Are you off campaigning against slavery in Africa this weekend or are you just using it as a convenient way to score points on the internet? Yes or no will do.

Please answer this question. Why did you go and Google modern day slavery in Africa in a discussion about institutional racism in the west? What does one thing have to do the other?

I think Bergdorf's comments which got her sacked were inflammatory and ill- judged and she deserved to be sacked

Imagine my surprise.

But black people enslave black people is no different to people who say but black people kill black people

Who is benefiting from the horror in Africa?

At a guess I'd say the despotic black rulers in the 5 countries listed.

This and the rest of the post it comes from show exactly why MB's statement was unhelpful generally, as this is the response it gets

Do you think that poster cares what way it is phrased? I may be lost but isn't this the forum where people are usually decrying the moderation of language when talking about oppression?

And the Royal Navy didn’t end it for benevolent reasons. Britain’s manufacturing was miles ahead and this was intended to dry up the competition.

Here's my question though. What is your point? In a discussion about the oppression of people of colour in Western society what exactly is that point of this comment?

You posted a comment suggesting another poster was mistaken about the existence of slavery in Africa. Are you happy to ignore or even deny the oppression of people of colour as long as it's done by people of colour?

I think Bergdorf's comments which got her sacked were inflammatory and ill- judged and she deserved to be sacked.

So ALL white people are the problem? What a racist thing to say.

This and the rest of the post it comes from show exactly why MB's statement was unhelpful generally, as this is the response it gets.

@DidoLamenting

No I don't deny any of that. I didn't know anything but I know where you have deprivation you have horror so it doesn't surprise me.

Here's my question though. What is your point? In a discussion about the oppression of people of colour in Western society what exactly is that point of this comment?

Who are those slaves? Who is benefiting from the horror in Africa? Tell me about the history of the DRC and Jamaica, tell me about Patrice Lambumba.

Then try and tell me the people who are saying "the Slave Trade was started by Africans and ended by the Royal Navy" aren't racist cunts but don't expect me to change my mind.

The histories of black people being in the US and being in the UK are very different. That difference is being blurred more and more and I think it harms race relations in the UK.