Munroe Bergdorf makes George Floyd/Black Lives Matter all about Munroe Bergdorf

(Sorry for the length of the previous post btw, feel free to skip if it's boring.)

The problem I have with being asked to accept that TuTu's perspective is the only acceptable one is that a. I was partially raised by Americans, who were close friends of my parents and whose kids I grew up with, but b. most of them were Hispanic first generation immigrants, other than the ones whose Mexican families ended up living in America because the border moved rather than because they moved. And the bits of America I've lived in have mostly been the bits that if a war or two had gone differently might still be part of Mexico. So here I am, another Brit living in America, but the lens I'm seeing things through is very different to hers (and my lens is going "wait, did all the Native American and Hispanic people just vanish from this analysis of race in America?"). Which doesn't mean that either of us is wrong, it just means that different life experiences lead to seeing things differently.

There is absolutely no question that America has an especially ugly history in terms of the oppression of black people, and the legacy of slavery can still be seen everywhere. In many areas the forerunners of the current police and jail system came into existence in an attempt to "control" former slaves, and when those slaves were freed it was in some ways in name only. There is also no question that the UK played a significant role in things ending up as fucked as as they have. However, the US and the UK now are very different societies and it just doesn't work to talk about structural racism in both countries as if it works in the same way. It's also impossible to have any sort of productive conversation about any of what's going on in the US now without realizing how different policing is in the two countries. I'm white, though not always read as such, and in a place where there are currently demonstrations going on, as well as some looting. In those cases where demonstration has moved more towards riot, it's been because the police are so heavy handed and so militarized that they've pushed things in that direction. In Washington DC people spotted a blackhawk flying over a demonstration. That's a military helicopter, what the hell is it doing being used against American civilians? Here the police are driving around in what look like tanks rather than police cars. I'm going out even less than I already was because of Covid19, but it's not the protestors I'm afraid of, or even the minority of people who're looting. It's the police. If you've been lucky enough never to deal with American police and are picturing British police it's almost impossible to convey how terrifying the American police can be. Right now it feels like there is an occupying army riding around in tanks ready to shoot anyone who looks at them wrong. This is not the fault of the people demonstrating, it's the kind of massive, stupid overreaction that always happens when a deeply racist society with a militarized police force finds itself facing the (entirely justifiable) anger of its black population. Having a complete imbecile in charge isn't helping.

I don't like Bergdorf and wish that they would do a bit of reflection on their own colonizing behavior towards women, but I wish that some people would take a deep thread and consider the optics of this thread a bit more carefully. GC women familiar with Bergdorf's history are not the only people reading.

(I was thinking this on the thread about Amy Cooper too but couldn't figure out how to articulate it.)

Also, not sure if people will be able to watch this in the UK, but I think it's a pretty good overview of why things have kicked off the way they have over the past few weeks and might be useful for people who've never spent any time in the US in terms of explaining how a lot of people are feeling.

I'm intrigued by the sound of some of the books by Thomas Sowell.

Black Rednecks and White Liberals - www.amazon.co.uk/Black-Rednecks-White-Liberals-Autonomy/dp/1594031436?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Discrimination and Disparities - www.amazon.co.uk/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sowell/dp/1541645634?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

Ahhh my reading list just gets bigger!

Where does the idea that we're not allowed to draw attention to the parallels come from?

Not sure tbh.

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/sexism-and-racism-are-identical-here%E2%80%99s-why.3569338/

Came across this thread earlier. Which says it all.

Lipstickalley is a space for (primarily, if not exclusively) black women to talk. For anyone who doesn't know. Its been an interesting read today, I have to say. I have learnt a fair bit today just from there.

White privilege is as much of a 'thing' as male privilege is.

There's a really obvious parallel there too - in the US black people aren't afforded the privilege of being able to live their lives in the reasonable expectation of not being harassed and attacked by white people; swap black for female and white for male and you've got the reality of being female in the West.

Where does the idea that we're not allowed to draw attention to the parallels come from?

Hmm disappearing post. If the privilige comment that I just quoted was the deleted post..and mine needs nuked because of it, please HQ can you just edit it out and leave the rest of my post?

I should have clicked on, when I did not remember seeing anyone say the quote, and quoted it from someone elses quote instead!

MB tells white people that they cannot possibly understand what life is like as a black person, and they are right. And yet that is exactly what Munroe has done to women. And not only has Munroe done it to women, Munroe has then preached to women that they are the ones doing womaning and feminism wrong

Quite. Astounding how Munroe doesn't seem to see this. Or care.

"White Privilige" is offensive American bollocks. An absence of social disadvantage is not a privilige, it is everyone's right

Bullshit IMO. White privilege is as much of a 'thing' as male privilege is.

I do think the 'ALL' was unnecessary really. As someone pointed out, its kind of the equivalant of saying 'all men have male privilege, therefor every man is a violent fucker' or something.

However, with that said, shes angry. People don't think too much in anger and I kind of doubt she really thinks its ALL..a fair amount depressingly, but not all.

Loreal have proper took the piss.

I would think so Goosefoot

But this discussion is - generally- suffering from a sort of category error. Many people feel a visceral emotional response because it affects them directly, others take a cooler more rational view because they are detached from it. Both are in agreement and both approaches are necessary im in the longer term. But don't necessarily see eye to eye in the heat of the moment. It's a pity because its directing the energy in the wrong direction. You need both spark and ember to burn something down. Its not a days work

She had point. We argued bout this years ago here and she was right then and now. Loreal has no right to claim they suport black people

So, I've asked this twice already, but no one has really given me an answer. Maybe it wasn't a clear question.

And I will say straight out that I don't think corporations are really caring about social issues. It's business for them. Mind you, they are operating in a social climate that demands they make these statements.

But how is it hypocritical on the one hand to say the support BLM, and on the other to not support MB's statements that all white people are racist in their DNA?

Arguably some might say that BLM also takes that view of racial essentialism, but I do not think most people believe that. They think that BLM is about racism and police brutality. Isn't it possible to be against racism and police brutality, and also against the kind of racial essentialism in MBs tweet that resulted in being fired?

She had point. We argued bout this years ago here and she was right then and now. Loreal has no right to claim they suport black people

MB has insulted a whole load of people. Why on earth would any brand want to be aligned with them? Don’t forget they were booked as keynote speaker at a woman’s film event at the BFI and women’s were shamed for complaining.

Bergdorf tweeted that the suffragettes in the UK specifically decreed that black women were specifically excluded in their fight for the vote.

This was proved to be 100% untrue.

MB has never apologised for this terrible slur on our heroines.

Therefore I have zero sympathy for MB.

Thank you to the posters who brought up critical race theory. I had never heard of that before and I am finding it very interesting to read about.

You say we're not on trial but you imply it by castigating us for not accepting responsibility using the terminology of the courts.

I'm not disagreeing with you, and I've pulled up my English peers on their woeful ignorance of our own sordid history quite a number of times.

I'm disagreeing with MB's proposition that all white people are inherently and inescapably born racist. Because it's fucking ignorant and ignores a hell of a lot of wider context, not just of world history outside of the Americas but also of how the human social animal functions.

Someone upthread described it as a sort of original sin. I can't think of a more appropriate metaphor.

I can't speak for your descendants, but I've only got the one, and she's never violently exploited any natives, because she's seven.

Noone is saying that we are "on trial for the British Empire" but if we talk about BLM and police brutality in the USA we should acknowledge an unbroken line to English colonial times in which slavery in North America began and that it was specifically those of African descent who were particularly picked out for unique and violent treatment by English settlers. That was after our descendants had used the native people as we saw fit of course, but unfortunately the pandemics we brought wiped out very large numbers of them.

We got off the boats with guns and our technology meant that British people brought enslaved people at gunpoint to America.

There is the foreshadowing and very long unbroken line to bring us into the 21st century and George Floyd's murder.

I won't say "guilty as charged", TuTu - I'm not on trial for the existence of the British Empire.

You mention wider context; what on earth do you think Goose and I have been talking about, if not the wider context in which the ongoing American situation arose?

Out of interest, do we know what's MB's view on the corporatisation (if that's a word) of Pride? Cos I'm assuming MB would be against it, based on that tweet. Is this the case?

I apologize if I sound preachy but I often find the ethical superiority with which many Brits talk about American issues on here as delusional if you don't also honestly take into account our own British dirty fingers all over the very foundations of these problems. If I come over as an asshole it's a small price to pay for putting some of this into a wider context.

And if noone ever says "guilty as charged" with a bit of acknowledgement of our part in American history right up to now (with Steve Bannon in the early Trump White House & Dominic Cummings in Boris' administration and their links for example) readers such as myself have no idea if posters are even aware of them.

I listened to a phone in in London one time when the discussion was "Why do we have such strong links with the USA" and literally noone in all their musings and rambles talked about the Colonies as the foundation of the USA. Of the Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution 2 were English, 2 Scottish, 2 Irish, 1 Welsh and 1 from Northern Ireland (then known as Scotch-Irish).

Bergdorf has tweeted again:

mobile.twitter.com/MunroeBergdorf/status/1268224894547959814

Look at the order of things on this thread. First priority is that L’Oréal haven’t apologised to Bergdorf for the “harm” done three years ago.

Second priority is that they haven’t engaged with black community members.

It’s a good thread overall, but Bergdorf just can’t help putting themselves first. The “harm” from losing a cosmetics contract must be prioritised over engagement with black community members. Repetitive behaviour.

I think most of us realised all of that a long time ago, TuTu. You don't need to preach.

The lack of knowledge about how the world works beyond the pond is a bit skewed in Europeans' favour, I think. We can't actually avoid learning about this stuff even if we wanted to. It's piped into our homes 24/7, y'know?

All through history people have opposed these injustices. Unfortunately those with the money and power could control people with the arms of the state (the police and army) while encouraging whites at the bottom of the social classes to feel superior because of white supremacy and not find common cause with people of color.

Trump for example lost the popular vote by 3 million. He was NOT the choice of the American people. However the Founding Fathers as an elite concerned about the "power of the mob" in a democracy included the Electoral College in the Constitution, enabling the elites to have another way to get their candidate into the Presidency. Trump's base is only 25% of the voting population, if more people voted (40-60% of Americans do not vote in elections) that proportion would shrink. Trump and the Republicans are doing everything they can to suppress voter turnout especially for younger voters. The Millennial generation is the most diverse in US history (roughly ages 38-23) and also the largest, while those ages 22 and younger are even more diverse making white Americans one group among many in younger generations, rather than the majority. It's no coincidence that the crowds of protesters are so young.

Trump is the expression of an Oligarchy that is trying to keep racial groups in their place and is very much a reflection of older generations. Those same Boomers however brought us civil and women's rights. If as a result of this uprising younger people finally come out to vote in large numbers they could sweep out of power the old racist guard such as Mitch McConnell, leader of the Senate.

America cannot exist as the richest economy in the world with such huge inequality, especially across the generations and races. The American Dream has always been a mirage for black people but now huge numbers of white people are also struggling economically. If they continue to find common cause the US could become a social-democracy which is what most voters are asking for. There has been lots of public discussion about universal health care, forgiveness of student loans, federal minimum wage and universal guaranteed income. All of which were radical before the economic crash of 2008.

given who the thread's about I think it's actually important, it is crucial absolute Elephant in the room stuff.

(the idea that "the slave trade" can be a unit of history and black history a month leads to our blinkered views whenever we don't acknowledge our entire social and economic system is constructed with black bodies at the bottom.

Black people aren't the only people in the world we've been absolute shits too. Just wait until you hear what we did to India.

Plenty of women's bodies at the bottom of the heap too. Very little seems to be made of Women's History Month though, which my school totally ignored even though it's apparently been a thing since 1911.

I'd normally not harp on about this point because it could come across as whataboutery, but given who the thread's about I think it's actually important. Women - of all races, ethnicities, and skin tones - are still enslaved today, and I see very few people on the Left denouncing this. On the contrary, they champion it as a free choice to be celebrated.

It would be churlish to reject the basic principle of black lives mattering because of this, but to my mind MB is also part of a movement that doesn't accept that women's lives matter.

Agreed that our history teaching is frequently far too narrowly-focused though. Like when they're teaching about the origins of WWI and fail to mention the role played by eg the American war of independence, or Vlad the Impaler. The wider context is never wide enough.