Bringing up boys

Obviously, overly imposing ideology of any kind, or any very certain value is not in anyone's best interests.

Yes, this is something to keep in mind. That's not to say you don't tell them what you think is true, and why, but they are autonomous people who will develop their own ideas and values, and make their own observations. Even quite young children sometimes make observations and draw conclusions quite separate from their parents, and those conclusions can be very powerful because they are things the child has arrived at themselves. Sometimes saying too much can get in the way of that, as can preventing exposure to anything that doesn't promote the views of the parents.

Mum of two older teen boys here.
There's so much I could contribute here, but I don't have time right now, but the only thing I would say is watch out for the influence of the boys & sport dynamic.
We found that at primary school EVERYTHING for boys seemed to revolve around sport - mostly football - and if that wasn't your thing then you were ostracised. Unfortunately some schools (and parents) seem completely obsessed with competitive sport being the only valid exercise for boys.

Although we tried them at all the 'boys' sports (footie, cricket, rugby) my two weren't in the least bit interested, so we had to work hard to help them find other friends in clubs and hobbies like scouts and music/drama.

Surely you strive to bring up your child both according to their nature and also according to your values, regardless of their sex.
Obviously, overly imposing ideology of any kind, or any very certain value is not in anyone's best interests.

Watched a new series on Channel 4 the other day - a 'competitive parenting' ( a bit weird) programme - where three sets of parents outline their parenting style, and then the audience votes on it.

One of the parents, a single mother calling herself a feminist, showcased what she called 'Gender Fluid' parenting. She had a son called Willow. He had very long hair ( about 5/6 years old) and no obvious 'boy toys'. She encouraged him to paint his nails and do stereotypically 'girly' stuff. Absolutely forbid guns/swords/fighting of any kind.

When he went to the homes of the other children he did not cope well at all. Two very different families. Was clingy, overly emotional, and confused. i didn't think that forcing 'girliness' on him was doing him any favours at all.

I've got a girl and two boys ( now all adult) and they are all unique and different in temperament. I do think, though, that there are some subtle differences between girls and boys...which to my mind is inevitable.

Ursula children are sadly picked on for a great variety of reasons.

I haven't seen anyone here advocating their child should "stand out" in any way, like eg putting your child in deliberately wacky clothes to make some sort of point.

Recognising that the world around your child is extremely gendered in a way that arguably harms girls far more than boys, is not a parental failure. In fact most child's strength of character will come from an overall sense of balance wrt gendered expectations.

I know many long-haired children who are boys, I presume that's the sort of "dodgy haircut" you're referring to, none of whom are suffering from bullying.

It's also rather misogynistic to blame this person's perceived failings in life on the mother alone.

Ursula I'm genuinely confused by your comments, how can many people bringing up their boys to be kind, thoughtful well rounded young men, Mark that young man as different. If more of us did that surely it would become the norm rather than the exception.

Our son is 16 we have always let him choose his own toys although he was obsessed with cars and trains at one point, but he also had dolls, a tea set, ironing board, Hoover and push chair - things generally considered girls toys. He loved dressing up and wet had many weird and wonderful combinations including my personal favorite of a cowboy with fairy wings and tiara!

My husband and I have an equal relationship based on friendship and trust and have worked as a team with my son sharing care very equally.

At 16 My son is sensitive and kind, built like a brick shithouse and so much taller than me! He has lots of friends of both sexes, who are all treated respectfully and equally.

I read the book raising boys by Stephen bidulph and found that very helpful in guiding how to bring up boys. In addition we have never been those parents that do not allow their son to show any emotion or let them cry. If he has needed to cry we have let him and then talked about the emotions around it, sadness, disappointment, anger, happiness so that he can get a handle on how he is feeling. We have talked to him about anything and everything, but more importantly allowed him to express himself with us in a safe environment so that we can guide with what's appropriate and what's not.

I'm very proud of the young man he's becoming.

Ds is my middle kid. He’s 18 and finishing a gap year that was supposed to end with a big European trip with his lad friends. He’s a giant hairy (really hairy. Omg.) basketball playing head lifeguard who is off to uni to train to be a history/ drama teacher fully wanting to have a side in youth or community theatre. He learned to walk in pink Barbie play shoes, breast fed his dollies, and pushed the dolly pushchair around the village for a solid year. He took dance classes from 18 months because his big sis took a pre-school class and we had to sit and wait for her, and he had so much fun joining in at the edge of the room that the teacher just said oh let him come and take part. (The class was 2+ but she said she wouldn’t make him wait.) He took ballet, musical theatre, hip hop and tap, and danced until he was 16 when he had to decide between a panto part and a lesson clash. He still can’t stand still if he hears music. He gave up just ballet at 8 entirely because all of the peer aged girls in his class told him that ballet was for girls and he shouldn’t be there.
That said, all three of them played with all of the toys. We had a giant dressing up box with all sorts of stuff in it, but all three loved the crappy plastic Barbie shoes, or to put on leotards and tights and tails and cat ears. They played together with the kitchen and the trains. The Thomas brio was adored and they fought over Cranky. Bob the a Builder and Thunderbirds were as well used as the kitchen.
They sort themselves out, given the chance. They work out what interests them and what sort of people they want to be. Both girls are scientists. Ds is not. He dropped science as fast as humanly possible in favour of drama, and has attended two lengthy performing arts camps during high school summers. Dd1 was a more competitive dancer, got more qualifications and actually taught dance while at school, but with ds it’s life choice lol. She did it because she loved it but knew that wasn’t her career. He performs because he can’t not.
Dh cooks. All the time. All the kids take turn to cook. The concessions we make in terms of gendered chores are essentially ‘oi giant man child, reach this/ carry this bloody heavy x’. At the mo our poor old dawg is struggling, and ds is the one carrying him up and down the stairs to his room so dawg doesn’t sleep alone. He is the one who mops up sick and looks after drunk friends, and makes sure everyone is safe.
Opportunity to explore, freedom from judgement, and all will be well.

Forgot to say, both my boys h play with girls thier ages and they have had dollies and pushchairs and play kitchen , tea set etc and lots of playmobil with I feel is very unisex

Mum of two boys and most importantly I have an amazing father. I think personally the key is to set an example and live by it.

My parents have an incredible equal marriage and my dad had two daughters and raised us to be independent and setting the example that house work and marriage childcare etc was 50:50

So that's what I expected in my marriage and I hope my boys see that I work full time and earn more than DH who also works full time but has a more flexibility as he is self employed so he does the school run and holiday child care.

In our home we both share chores out, not by whose turn is it but by who's able and around as we both juggle work. We both put kids to sleep, do baths and cook. Nothing is DHs job or mine.

What I have noticed is that regardless the boys do copy their dads and language they see. So if your husband treats you with respect they should grow up the same

In lock down we both do homework with kids just take a child each.

I think gently encouraging kids to ask questions about things is key.

People say girls should have long hair/wear pink/play with dolls, and boys shouldn't - why do you think that is?

Also bodily consent, I've been really strict about both respecting my children's boundaries and physical autonomy and insisting they respect other people's.

If they come out with sexist things, as they inevitably will, stereotypes are rife, I've tried not to freak out but just calmly asked more questions, asked what they think.

So far, touch wood, both are turning out to be kind, thoughtful, stubborn determined, and insightful, as I think most kids are if they're not damaged. They can recognise sexism quite quickly and are also quite sensitive to when they want to go along with stereotyping for a quiet life and when they want to stand up to it (son deciding not to wear a dress to first school dance, for example, but chose to wear his hair long).

I think if you're aware of these things then the kids will be largely likely to follow your lead and have that awareness.

Agree, YetAnother, my kids both do chores and have to help round the house. I think that's really helpful to a child to feel useful and included, too. And if there's a huge mess left, I often ask if they think it's fair that I then have to spend my time picking up after them. Sure they love that.

Books on feelings - I had a book of poems that I think my son found quite useful ... argh, can't remember the name now ...oh, here - 'I want to shout and stamp about'. For learning ways to support emotional regulation I highly recommend the work of Dr Laura Markham, who's just wonderful on active listening and supportive, positive parenting.

Unfortunately our eldest child had picked up the ‘boys toys’ bullshit from school. I just keep telling him that there’s no such thing as girls stuff and boys stuff and he can do what he wants regardless of what Freddie does. Thankfully both children seem to have a fairly pronounced subversive streak so we’re doing ok it terms of behaviour but he does come out with some real nonsense sometimes.

I think it is about raising them not to have a sense of entitlement to space, resources, time and women's energy. It's about looking after others as well as themselves and not expecting the world to give them a free pass because they need to 'look after themselves'.

I'm not sure how you go about that, but to me, it's one of the most important things.

I'll get flamed for this I am sure, but I have seen many women make excuses for sons when they do the above, no matter the age of the son.

It is men's sense of entitlement that really stuns me, especially when it is 'he vs. she' and he's really challenged to put his money where is mouth is and suddenly it's all unleashed; it's different, he's entitled, it's all he has ever wanted, she's in his way, etc. And so many women just say 'aw, but he's just looking after himself' and they are not seeing that this involves fucking over one or more women.

@howlatthetrees
"There are some amazing books on feelings that we read"
Would you mind please sharing what they are?

Thank you OP for starting this thread!

Mine is only 2 but DH and I have thought about these issues from the start. In some ways DH has more of a stereotypically “female” role - he works part time so has DS 2 days a week whereas I’m full time, and does more of the cooking and housework. DS has a full range of toys. PILs were not happy when I suggested they get him a little toy pram for Xmas until I pointed out that he sees his dad pushing his all the time. And of course he loves it!

Like pps I’m worried about what will happen when he gets to the age to be jnfluenced by peers, porn, social media (whatever it’s like by then!) and hope we can set him up to make the right decisions about things like that when the time comes.

We have two boys,12 and 9. Despite, for specific reasons, totally failing to split the domestic work equally, and me staying home with them for a long time, and not buying them dolls or party dresses, I hope that the role models they are have grown up with are strong ones. DH has always been very hands on with them, and he comes from a family of strong women. All their female relatives - grannies, aunties - and my closest female friends that we spent a lot of time with when they were young, are assertive, clever women.

I have three boys here. I echo everything the pp’s have said. My eldest 2 are 4 and 3, and I allow them to choose what clothes they would like when we go into shops and they get to choose between ‘boys’ and ‘girls’ clothes. They also have a wide range of toys, DS2 LOVES dolls and we’ve always encouraged that. There are some amazing books on feelings that we read, and I really encourage them to be open about how they feel. DH and I have always been on the same page about how we want the boys to be raised and I think that really helps, there isn’t any pressure from my DH to like stereotypical boys things.

Honestly I think the most important thing is respecting your kids, and teaching them to respect others, and contribute to the family.

When they are small they will often go through stages where they become attached to stereotypes, at other times they may do things that are very outside of stereotypical gender roles. At some ages many kids, even older ones, recognise and want to conform to gender markers like hair and clothing styles, or they may want to spend time more with other little boys or girls. Sometimes parents who want their boys to not be sexists try and push against that, but I think that can be counter-productive. It's just a normal part of development.
I'm not sure that it's necessarily that important how parents divide work, so much as it is that they both contribute and respect the others contribution. Unless your family is very rigid in their roles the kids will see their parents going outside of gender roles at least sometimes when it's necessary and that enough I think. There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with a traditional division of household work so long as people are treated fairly.
I'd be deliberate though about kids all doing all of the jobs as they become old enough to do them and boys helping mum and girls helping dad, with whatever they do.

Things I've made sure to emphasise with my son - there are no "girls toys" and "boys toys", just "fun interesting toys" versus "a bit rubbish toys".

Appeal to their sense of fairness - how unfair it is to say to anyone of either sex "you can't do that because you're a girl/boy". (NB, early years is not the time to talk about structural sexism and such like - this is an age at which the message has to be "equalism" because it's easier to understand.)

Google images can be your friend - if your child comes home and says "girls can't do X" - google images of lots of women doing precisely X. (Or conversely - when DS wanted long hair age 6/7 then got a lot of stick for it, google images of top international footballers with long hair became my go-to...)

It helps to read round child development, child psychology and the impact of sex stereotypes. One thing I picked up (from neuroscientist Lise Elliott's books, IIRC) is that pretty much all children go through a "gender policing" stage round about 4 to 5 years old - they've only just twigged to the existence of biological sex, and go through a muddled stage of entangling it with social sex stereotyping. But (the good news) by not reinforcing these attitudes at home in the preceeding 4 years, you can have an impact. Children whose parents don't enforce sex stereotyping typically go into this "role policing" stage later, and come out of it sooner. (It lasted less than a year with my son, as far as I recall).

I have two boys, they are 5 and 2 so we are still in the early days. I let them play with whatever they want, the older one has always been into dinosaurs and cars but my younger loves dolls and pretending to look after his ‘baby’. Both have longer hair, my oldest in particular has a full mane of curls, it always attracts compliments when we are out!

My husband works part time and I’m full time, so they are very used to seeing a man doing all of the caring responsibilities on the days that he is home and I am at work. We have always shared everything so I hope we are bringing them up to be equal partners in the future. I tell them that boys and girls can both be whatever they want to be when we talk about jobs etc.

Society is the biggest issue but all you can do is give positive messages at home.

Two boys here, 9 and 12. All of the above on division of labour, plus lots of hugs and affection and never ever using the 'for girls/boys' phrase.

Also I do talk about feminism when something prompts the conversation - they know all about the Bechdel Test - but in the context of human rights and respect.

They're gentle types - love baking and stories - so I've also been very clear that their way of being a boy is perfect because it's their way. And they're very clear that humans do not change sex.

So far they're fabulous

Totally agree with that last point!

I think you might want to reexamine your ideas about mess, OP. Do your share of the housework but do not criticise or redo what your partner does.

And if your son turns out only to be interested in traditionally boys' toys and male pursuits, respect that as his particular taste and personality. I was a tomboy, but my dd liked barbies and awful guff like that. I had to accept it. She's still a feminist.

And I think emotional intelligence is really important. Toxic males often don't know how to distinguish between disappointment, sadness, shame and all the other negative emotions, and manifest them all as anger.

I have two sons both in their twenties. We brought them up with lots of love and discussion/argument. and an open attitude to questions. Both have healthy friendships and treat girlfriends with respect. They know how to be decent humans. I had a shocking conversation with the younger last week - he told me that he was really upset when a uni girlfriend expressed surprise (and pleasure) that he didn't pressure her to do anything 'exotic' - every other bf had wanted her to do things she didn't like. He's vehemently anti-porn, as is my other son.
I'm not aware of having deliberately thought about feminism in their upbringing, but we talked a lot, and they saw their parents in a loving relationship, with disagreements as well as harmony, and I think that is important.