How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

NekoShiro
Sounds like you had an idyllic childhood. On the other head, my own family has suffered traumatically from sexual abuse. The racism example is all too often played as an example. It is not the same.

As I have said in a previous post, you are making this about toilets. I, as many people on this thread, are not. The impact is much more wide spread. If you only focus on toilets, you will have a very narrow focus indeed.

Why do the men have to be the ones to have their spaces filled, is it because they have less issues with it? Maybe I just don't understand the shame around seeing a penis as well, my parents were nudists and I went to family nudist events from a young age, I saw a lot of penises, boobs and vaginas and I feel that that has helped me to have such a strong sense of body confidence, I know that all bodies are different and a penis is just another part of that body. Maybe that's why I don't understand the arguments about young children having to see penises, it doesn't have to be something that is mentally scarring if the parents don't act like it is, it's not going to corrupt them, I think that the shame and hiding of naked bodies does more harm in the long run.

Knowingly making someone uncomfortable because you are just existing around them must be a hard thing for transpeople to avoid, the issues comes from who they are, to me it sounds like saying, what if a black man was in a safe white space, knowingly making people uncomfortable, putting his own needs first, and the guys just trying to get some shopping done. Obviously that's painting what we're both saying with a large vague brush, but if someone is in a refuge centre, after suffering terrible abuse, I'm sure they're only in the centre because they too have suffered terrible abuse.

Like I said before I believe that all children should be taught that naked bodies are perfectly fine and natural, but then again I don't assume that everyone with a penis is a sexual predator just because they have a penis.

I'm sorry, I don't feel like any of this is clearer to me, the thread just reminds me of a joke at the end of a TV show I watched recently, one of the characters releases a book called New New Feminism, Women are just better.

her saying we have to be kind, transwomen are women, NAMALT, accusing me of being one of those radical feminists

Starting from this point may be useful.
Radical feminism isnt radical because its extreme, the word refers to root.
A lot of women's & feminist history isnt known or well understood.

Brett Weinstein's suggestion was to avoid questions that allow your child to give the automatic reflex response without thinking and instead ask one that makes them actually have to think about it (e.g. how is it kind to force battered women to accept biological men in their refuge).

It may not work right away but it gets the cogs turning and, with luck, they'll change as they've worked it out themselves.

If they use the male space then they are encroaching on the male space set out for males, which they weren't born into, but if they went into the women's, women would feel uncomfortable that a man was in their area and ask him to leave, until they then explain that they are trans and then have what, half the people still upset they're there and half not

The simplest way to remove this would be to have strictly female spaces then an all gender space for men/TW/TM/NB and anyone else who wishes to use it.

For me it boils down to a question of consent, bearing in mind males are responsible for 98% of sexual crime. So If a female person who identifies as a man chooses to use male facilities they are making their own choice and own risk assessment which will not affect any other female.

If any male is allowed to use female facilities based on their identity the question of choice and consent is taken away from all the females using those spaces. Because so many places lie about their facilities being de-facto mixed sex we are deprived of the information needed to make our own assessment of risk and the risk to our young daughters who are at an age where they are becoming independent.

NekoShiro this isn’t just about toilets and I know you realise this.

The situation for that transman is a hard one to navigate. Why? Because I have come to believe that the perception of a person being male is a problem to many women. So while for me, theoretically I would have no problems with a transman was using the female toilet. I recently have come to believe that this too is problematic for others. I have also come to realize that some male presenting detransitioners also understand this and continue to use male toilets.

Here is a question for you. Why is it ok for others to knowingly make women who have suffered terrible abuse uncomfortable in what is supposedly a safe space? Why is it ok to teach teenage girls to accept naked male bodies in their changing room under the guise that they have a female penis? Who benefits from that?

How can the thought process behind statements such as 'I knew my son was trans when he was very little because he liked girls toys' be anything else than adherence to stereotypes?

This. And the fact that most of my female friends growing up would now be considered male. The boys toys were always so much more interesting. Yet strangely, not one of us girls are. And my craft loving brother is a hulking bikie complete with beard and tats. Why is this narrow view being pushed?

we fought for equal rights but only if you assign to the strict tradional gender roles, if you try to waver from that I will shame you back into your box.

No at all. Equal rights were to remove gender roles. Ie. So that when my mother I law got pregnant and had to resign from her job didn’t happen again. So that I shouldn’t have to answer questions such as ‘when are you planning on having children’ in a job interview and that it shouldn’t matter. No man I know has been asked that question. Or passed over for promotion because of it.

However, the protections are in place also because of biology. If I was pregnant (Biological not gendered need) or I (or my husband) needed some extra consideration for childcare arrangements at work, it was allowed for. Because of the biological necessity. Even when I needed to work from home when I got my period as I suffered so badly with them, again a biological need that is in no way a Gendered need.

The same with women’s sports. It had protections due to biology (unfair advantage and safety).

And regards to shaming people about ‘gender roles’. In my home, there are no gender roles. There are only jobs that get done from DIY to cooking, from admin to cleaning. Done by everyone.

I'm cooking lunch so this is a quick addition before I check back later and reply, so say you have a trans man, biological female but transitioned in their 20s and from the outside look what we traditionally describe as being Male, secondary sex identifiers such as facial hair, like a beard and a deeper voice(testosterone) , an Adams apple (cosmetic surgery) the full illusion, naturally tall and of a more muscular build from exercise, genital surgery doesn't matter in this hypothetical, and is now a 40 year old trans man, now this person would like to use the single sex washrooms in a restaurant, or the single sex changing rooms in a store, which space are they going to use? Female as that is their biological sex, or male as it is the sex they are presenting?

If they use the male space then they are encroaching on the male space set out for males, which they weren't born into, but if they went into the women's, women would feel uncomfortable that a man was in their area and ask him to leave, until they then explain that they are trans and then have what, half the people still upset they're there and half not?

So what I was actually getting at Neko is that to me, female’s protections are absolute. Just as anti-discrimination protections are for all other people.

However, it is not discriminatory to tell your kids to not accept ‘new ideologies’ without first understanding who and what beliefs drive it and how it impacts everyone.

Just who benefits from believing that all parents trying to counter such an ideology are either the ones in a cult or are just plain phobic?

we fought for equal rights but only if you assign to the strict traditional gender roles

Gender ideology is about gender roles and boxes though. How can the thought process behind statements such as 'I knew my son was trans when he was very little because he liked girls toys' be anything else than adherence to stereotypes?

It's a strong theme of trans ideology that runs through it like a stick of rock. The belief that gender stereotypes are what makes a man or woman.

But it's seem hypocritical to say your worried about you're kids being groomed by cults aand then it sounds like you groom then yourself to your own thinking, slowly over time trying to change their thoughts 'open their eyes to the truth' you speak in absolutes just like a cult would, trust me I know the truth and will tell you that truth, and I'm just questioning if people realise they might sound that way.

I can see where you are coming from. I come at this from a ‘pro woman’ angle, I also studied industrial relations at uni and am strong on employment protection. I don’t believe I am anti trans. I believe they exist and they should have and do have the same rights as everyone. Their rights should never erode protections put in place to protect females however. Ever.

Discussing the complexities of humanity is not denying anyone’s existence. Teaching our kids to accept lies at face value and wholly believe it? To accept science on climate change yet not accept it about our own biology? Is this ok?

There is a difference in being inclusive and allowing people or groups of people to cross our boundaries by stating people can change sex and that female’s no longer need the old protections just because a male says they are female.

This is a really helpful thread. My DD 14 thinks I'm nuts, I can't seem to say anything right on the subject. DS17 thinks that tw winning women's sports is awful so on one point they'll agree that I'm not a phobic person. I like the more subtle ways of conversation suggested by pp.

Oh and I'd get her Dad or GPs or an Auntie involved. You don't have to be the Big Bad Wolf being mean all the time! I hope you have support and don't have to carry this on your own.

There's lots of brilliant advice on here and this is probably terrible advice so please feel free to scroll right past. I have a 4 year old, not a teenager so the walls you mothers have to climb are ridiculously high. I salute you I really do.

With threads like these I always ask myself why do women have to be kind when men, and other women, are not kind to us. If it was me I'd start with:

Emmeline Pankhurst being MAN handled, pale and ill from hunger strike. She and others fought for the right to vote, no one gave it to us.

Kathy Swizer, being MAN handled, as she tries to free herself from their grip so to run the 1967 Boston marathon.

I'd discuss how my mother and mother in law were expected to resign upon getting pregnant in the 1970s and how Angela Ames was expected to resign and her discrimination case was fought and lost because men can "lactate" too.
campbelllawobserver.com/men-can-lactate-too-breastfeeding-mom-loses-discrimination-case/

I'd progress to Katie Dowalatoski and ask my DD if the little girl fighting him off should have been kind to him. I realise this goes way too far but I do hope these teenagers realise what they are being kind for, or whilst they are being kind they are being quite the opposite to others.

As PPS say I'm teaching my boy to be respectful, not kind. There are truths and facts then there is opinion. Don't get me started on Love is Love either.

I'm sure your DD is smart OP and will come out the other side. This stuff makes me rage as it truly undermines what we are parents want to do, which is protect our kids. It's really dangerous. I pray is passes before we hit the teenage years!

@winesalot, did I do the @ right? I don't have children, I'm on the fence if I want them or not, it's what brought me to this forum.

If you're daughter has a trans friend that she is close to then I'm sure she has an understanding of both sides of the argument and will make up her own mind, it's just that the way this issue is being talked about is a very strong stance, which obviously is fine, everyone has their own opinions, I just find it weird that in a thread about talking to children about trans rights its not actually about talking to kids about trans rights its about telling them how you don't believe trans people are even real, they are make believe and all just out to hurt you, we fought for equal rights but only if you assign to the strict tradional gender roles, if you try to waver from that I will shame you back into your box.

I'm trying to understand the whole 'anti' trans idea but I'm learning a lot by reading these boards even though it's still not really something I agree with,

But it's seem hypocritical to say your worried about you're kids being groomed by cults aand then it sounds like you groom then yourself to your own thinking, slowly over time trying to change their thoughts 'open their eyes to the truth' you speak in absolutes just like a cult would, trust me I know the truth and will tell you that truth, and I'm just questioning if people realise they might sound that way.

My eldest automatically assumes this current position must be correct because it is the new one that has rejected all the misunderstandings and flawed, uninformed, ignorant science of the past.

This is why it is so hard for teens to navigate. How can the new way of thinking be ‘wrong’? Then my daughter catches some 80s music film clips and she does understand that this tightening of stereotypes is actually regressive not progressive. Particularly when she ties it into how self obsessed SM can be.

I'm sure that she'll come out the other side of this - she's a bright questioning girl

The problem is that she believes she is being questioning by challenging the status quo.

My eldest automatically assumes this current position must be correct because it is the new one that has rejected all the misunderstandings and flawed, uninformed, ignorant science of the past.

No idea where you go from here.

My 21 year old is firmly of the belief that TWAW (although also admits they have read nothing around it and just wants to be kind. In fact, they won't read anything around it because it's "irrelevant" they are worried they might read something that renders their position untenable

My 14 year old understands you can't change sex, you can present in any way you want but men and men and women are women.

Great thread and some good ideas. One of the problems is that because this is such a complex issue it feels very 'stressful' discussing this with our children. Not wanting to initiate the normal 'parent / child' reaction to a subject where we disagree and where our views will in their eyes be bigoted and old fashioned. Pointing out the evident links with the anti vaxxers and flat earthers is a good idea.
My adult daughter, after a number of years being very sceptical about trans issues recently told me she now shares my views on sport, single sex spaces etc. But she now fears for my safety as she sees how unpleasant and vitriolic most TRAs are

NekoShiro, facts are facts. If my DDs had tried to say that the Sun goes round the Earth, or that Peru is in Europe, I would not have hesitated to tell them they were wrong. It’s exactly the same as claiming humans (or any mammal) can change sex, or that sex is a “spectrum”. Complete nonsense.
Teaching children to critically evaluate nonsensical beliefs is essential to keep them safe from cults. And the TRAs fit every criterion for being a cult.

Strangely enough NekoShiro, as long as my daughter looked at it objectively while understanding the premise that people cannot biologically change sex, plus understand that female’s rights matter as much as transrights and female’s rights shouldn’t be eroded, I’d think I would have succeeded in raising a person who thinks critically.

She knows this. No forceably pushed beliefs. We have agreed to disagree on several other unrelated issues. I do NOT believe that at the moment she is connecting it all up. Because she is trying to not offend her friends and frankly, she is too young to deal with several aspects of this debate. And she has at least one friend who has identified as a transboy so she is very sensitive to this (as am I).

Happy to listen to how you’ve approached it with your teen daughter over the past 12 months NekoShiro. Was it successful?

Remind her that over 80% of transwomen keep their penis.

I notice on the Baroness’s twitter someone had done some number crunching on Stonewall’s figures and this indicated that around 99% of transwomen keep their penis.

Is she too young for a coercive control chat?

We all know that it is impossible for a sperm producer to become an ovum releaser and vice versa. TW know that they are not women. She knows that they are not women, but is being coerced into pretending that they are. Why is that?

How is it kind to pretend that someone blatantly male passes as female?

As for the nonbinary nonsense, if sex is a spectrum (which of course it isn't), then nonbinary makes even less sense!

I found my teen ds started eye rolling and getting cross with me telling him the latest wtf thing I'd found out. So I backed right off and would just put little snippets in where I could.

Knowing the difference between sex and gender is a good start and I tend to go down the 'gender harms everyone' route to people new to the discussion

Kinda sounds like a lot of the people commenting in this thread arnt talking to their kids about trans issues, more like you're telling you're kids how you want them to think about trans issurs, you sound as heels dug in and stubborn as flat earthers and anti vaxxers. 'Be a free thinker, with exactly the same thoughts and beliefs as me' do you ever think that by being so forcefully against what they're saying you're just driving them deeper into their current thinking?