How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

Yes, Millie, I agree, listening to others' views is as important as stating your own. Do you think you can persuade the "TWAW - no debate" people to listen to our point of view?

I do think that Sillydoggy made a good point about this particular issue, though:

The difference with this ideology is that it is actively harmful rather than a matter of opinion. If you found your girls on a pro-ana site or watching extreme porn would you be saying we should let them make up their own minds?

This is why it's not just enough to say 'make up your own minds' to children about some issues. It's not like trying to persuade someone to vote labour instead of tory. But the first step is to be able to have a dialogue which doesn't involve one side shouting 'bigot' at the other, and refusing to listen.

@OldCrone

I actually believe that discussions with people who hold opposing views to you aren't always about getting the other to believe what you do/convince them that you're right, it's more about simply broadening everyone's way of thinking.

My DH's family all vote the 'opposite' way to me and we regularly have discussions about it, not with any intent to convince the other party of thinking differently, simply to gain a greater understanding of that other person and how they think.

Saying that you wish to bring someone around to your way of thinking is explicitly saying that you want them to think the same as you?

That looks like a statement, but has a question mark at the end. Are you asking me whether that's what I think?

I'm all for a critical discussion

That's good. How about having a chat with the "TWAW - no debate" crowd and persuading them that critical discussion is a good idea?

that's different to having a discussion with the intent of convincing someone to believe and think how you do

The whole purpose of a discussion between two or more people with opposing views is to try to convince people that your position is the right one to hold. Otherwise there'd be no point in having them, would there? But the way to do this is by having good, clear arguments to support your position, not shouting down the other side by calling them bigots and fascists.

We all bring up our children thinking the way we do to a certain point put when they start to think for themselves , then we discuss - think about religion or lack of it, vegetarian or meat eater, Labour or conservative.

The difference with this ideology is that it is actively harmful rather than a matter of opinion. If you found your girls on a pro-ana site or watching extreme porn would you be saying we should let them make up their own minds? At 13 with strong messages coming from school and friends they need some guidance on keeping themselves and their rights safe and their boundaries protected.

@OldCrone

Saying that you wish to bring someone around to your way of thinking is explicitly saying that you want them to think the same as you?

I'm all for a critical discussion but that's different to having a discussion with the intent of convincing someone to believe and think how you do

Thank you for answering 2007

Not specifically the OP, but others who have said they are trying to bring their children around to their way of thinking.

You seem to have misunderstood Millie. They want their children to engage their brains and do a bit of critical thinking. Schools and social media, along with their friends who repeat this stuff, are telling them what to think, and they're going along with it, without ever giving it any thought.

But first you have to overcome the first hurdle, which is that anyone who thinks for themselves and questions phrases like TWAW is a bigot.

So it's not about bringing their children round to their way of thinking so much as getting their children to do a bit of thinking for themselves, rather than just going along with what school/social media/their friends tell them.

Yes. With a girl who has found finding friends hard, it is very important.

Winesalot,fair point. I was generalising as to schools on the basis of some of the worst examples where teachers are indoctrinating but the info they get from their friends is possibly even more influential.

Thanks sillydoggy for that. I realized that that particular point missed the ‘because she should just go with the flow and not buck the system’ .

Well exactly, Winesalot, girls having all the facts and thinking for themselves rather than parroting ‘be kind’ really just isnt on!

To be fair sillydoggy in my daughter’s case the teacher gave the facts as ‘gay community’ and she used information given by her friends to draw that conclusion. However, the teacher would never have known until seeing an exam answer that she had completely misunderstood. Maybe also because the teacher doesn’t understand that these students are discussing this without having a balanced viewpoint.

Looking back Rufus, I can assume that Ursula and 2007 mean me. And from the outset I have said I have taken the ‘critical thinking’ path and said that we don’t agree on everything. So, I can then only assume that teaching a teen to look beyond ideas that are being pushed that may be premised on invalid science and statistics is wrong. That for a young woman to make up her own mind when she has all the facts and emotive reasoning in front of her is wrong.

Which of Babdoc's statements do you think are 'opinions' rather than facts?

Is an excellent question.

Please take the time to answer it 2007

So schools are currently tying to bring children round to they way of thinking that TWAW and women and girls rights to boundaries and a clear definition of their sex are unimportant and we mums are not allowed to contradict that message with a clear opinion of our own that our daughters’ rights are important and noone can change sex? Are you serious?

What is wrong with teaching daughters the way we see it when others are strongly giving an opposite view?

Sorry. That sex is on a spectrum ‘is true’.

@RufustheLanglovingreindeer

Not specifically the OP, but others who have said they are trying to bring their children around to their way of thinking.

Science, facts and what is right and wrong change constantly.

Well yes, what is considered ‘right and wrong’ sometimes does change as society develops. It can shape how you perceive And interpret facts and science but it does not change them. I am very keen to see the documented and peer reviewed evidence that the premise of biological sex is on a spectrum is untrue. And without being DSDs into the study. I read the articles put forward by activists and cannot find one that has been able to be repeated to produce the same results over a much larger population. I also find that they have been done to ‘confirm’ a hypothesis. I haven’t come across one that is robustly peer reviewed. I did come across a proposal for a study that was withdrawn because the uni felt it would be a PR issue as it may have proven theories wrong.

It does make me angry. "Shut up and put other people's feelings above your own"

However, I think some posters do verge on the boundary of forcibly wanting their child to see their view and no others because they believe their view is the only right/superior one etc

Who?

I’d check but I’ve already checked the OPs posts and she didn’t seem to be doing what you say she is doing

Perhaps all young girls should be reminded that the ‘be kind’ message has been used to surpress the rightful feeling of girls for centuries. Usually used by older women to remind girls that their rightful place is behind their brothers and husbands. The resurgence of ‘be kind’ should make us all angry.

It doesn't matter what the parent thinks about trans ideology if they encourage a child to think about it critically and come to their own conclusion using the evidence available.

Maybe that's why I don't understand the arguments about young children having to see penises, it doesn't have to be something that is mentally scarring if the parents don't act like it is, it's not going to corrupt them, I think that the shame and hiding of naked bodies does more harm in the long run.

The issue (which you are terming 'argument') is that girl children should not have to see naked male bodies in female single sex spaces. Also that girls (& women) should not have to be seen by men (human males) whilst undressing in female single sex spaces.

These are matters of consent.

It is parents who are objecting because they are seeking to Safeguard their daughters (as is their responsibility).

Denying the importance of consent & Safeguarding always causes great harm.

I must also ask what is emotive about encouraging a teen to think critically about an ‘emotive’ topic and understand what is fact and proven to be incorrect and what is just acceptance.

It really is not emotive to correct a perception that people can biologically change sex. And it is important to get sex and gender correct. For example, as someone who is now started their studies for GCSE I had my daughter come home and tell me that aids, the gay community and the 1980s. When I asked what gay meant to her, she told me that it was any person identifying as a man having sex with another person identifying as a man. I then had to explain to her that HIV was especially dangerous for that community at the time as anal sex with a penis was a factor of its spread. And that it was having penis in anus sex of which gay males were the group most known to engage in the 80s ie, not transmen having PIV sex with a male or two transmen having sex or male having a blowjob - that there was risk but anal sex is still the riskiest type of sex.

After this she understood that people cannot in any biological way become the other sex. I also explained to her about Differences in sexual development and how it also cannot be used to say sex is on any spectrum. How you identify your gender can.

This is but one incidence I have had to discuss with her this past year. Because she is applying the current unproven and statistically incorrect feelings she is learning about from peers and unproven guidance to her studies.

So please tell me what is emotive about teaching critical thinking that means that when she sees facts using sex and gender terms, she should look further to make sure she gets the accurate information.

2007Millie
Which of Babdoc's statements do you think are 'opinions' rather than facts?