How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

I was having a good chat today on a walk with my 20 year old son about medication and the ethics of testing new drugs - not transgender related at all, but Covid related.

We got on to the lack of testing on children and then the default assumption of ‘man aged 18 to 35 with no health conditions’ as a test subject, and the possible complications for medicating women and children.

So when he started talking about the Covid tracing app and that it just needs ‘age and gender’, I asked if he meant sex, and we talked about whether it was better to risk missing crucial medical information by asking for gender, or risk offending people into not using an app by asking for actual sex. We had different opinions...

I did also mention to him that if our trans family member should get taken to hospital, it’s important (maybe lifesaving) that staff know she’s really female.

I know I can’t covert him to the view that gender is bollocks to be avoided. He’s too much a product of his generation for that.

It does seem that we should be letting the internet instil values and beliefs into our kids doesn’t it?

Those annoying parents instilling their own beliefs and morals into their children. Down with that sort of thing!

You may well believe that transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience (which I actually personally agree with) but if you just forcibly say this to a rebellious teen, you will more than likely just make them believe in it even more.

Maybe so. But it's up to the parent how they approach it.

Eresh,

A decent parent (or teacher) presents both sides of an argument and then comes down on their favoured side.

For instance, as an agnostic person educated in science, I will present arguments (as in evidence) for the Big Bang to my children. I will also say I don’t see evidence for a God (at least not in the traditional sense). However, I will not categorically tell them that there is no god, as I do not know that for a fact. And, if they ask, I will also tell them why some do believe in a god, whilst saying I don’t agree with them, and why.

You may well believe that transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience (which I actually personally agree with) but if you just forcibly say this to a rebellious teen, you will more than likely just make them believe in it even more.

Schools very heavily push the ‘be kind’ message these days and most teens believe that this means tolerating others’ beliefs. They don’t really buy (or at least the ones I have spoken to don’t) the trampling on women’s rights argument. The only argument I put to them which made them stop and think was women’s sport.

There is a huge generational divide on this issue.

Why do you think that is? Could it be because children are being taught about only one side in school? And get the same message reinforced by everything they read online.

Transgender ideology is unfalsifiable pseudoscience. You're under no obligation to present other people's non-scientific beliefs as equally valid, just like you're under no obligation to say that X religious belief could be true, because it can't be proven otherwise. People who have faith can raise their children in their religion. Atheists can bring up their children to disbelieve in God, and gender atheists can do the same for "born in the wrong body".

We have seen transideologues doing all they can to ‘educate’ young people, to silence any alternative voices. Ursula sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - I presume you support organisation like fairplay4women, transgender trend, and women’s place going into schools to present alternative information to Stonewall to enable young people to make up their own minds?

The best way to talk to a teen (or any child beyond about 4) is to make clear what is fact and what is opinion.

‘Transwomen have male chromosomes’ is a fact, ‘trams women are men’ is an opinion, because it depends on a definition of man.

There is nothing wrong with having a strong opinion and justifying it with good argument, but presenting opinion as fact is, firstly, not that honest and, secondly, will lead someone to believe you are trying to foist your value set in them, something that typically does not end well with teenagers.

There is a huge generational divide on this issue.

but it's important that you also understand the reasoning behind the trans perspective before you reach a conclusion'

What is this "reasoning" beyond some people believe they're born in the wrong body" and how is that different from "some people believe that there is an almighty being directing our actions"?

Once you are obliged to hold certain beliefs, or at least not challenge them, we arrive at a situation whereby the most dominant viewpoint becomes the only one that matters.

Which is where the danger lies with the current situation, where it is seen as unacceptable to challenge trans ideology. We have to be able to challenge this and to discuss this with children. They should not be getting such a one-sided view from schools and from what is in the media, and being told that any sort of questioning of this one-sided view is 'transphobic'.

But, on the other hand, if the OPs daughter had expressed a clearly GC viewpoint, would the OP have honestly taken the time to lay out the trans viewpoint and ensure that she was clear on their perspective so as she could decide?

What is 'the trans viewpoint'? That people can change sex? That sex isn't real but 'gender' is? How would you explain this to someone who isn't a believer? And why would you if you didn't believe it yourself? And since this belief system is so harmful for girls, why would anyone want to encourage their daughter to believe in it?

Quite easily in my situation with DS, less so with DSD.

DS 17 has very much a scientific mind. He read an article about Trans issues and asked me to to explain why people thought it was possible to change sex - because it was untrue.

He's sympathetic to people suffering from GD but on his own bat read up on AGP and is very much GC and has been vocal about it in school when T based organisations have visited his school and was surprised to find he's far from alone.

DSD is a few years older and got very much swept up by the Pride movement due to a friend being initially bi and then trans.

Conversations with her have been more difficult but as time as gone on she's done a full u-turn from being a trans ally to GC - but frankly not because of anything I said.

Rather she watched her friends (in her words) manipulations over time regarding her "special status" whilst realising she was a hetro teen like DSD by her actions.

[quote 2007Millie]@Ursula2001

I totally agree.

It's more a "I'll keep speaking to my daughter until she sees my point of view" rather than discussing/debating etc and understanding that someone can disagree

It's an emotive subject, there is no right or wrong, it is simply that people have different preferences as to what they want and what they deem acceptable

[/quote]
Reality isn't a point of view. Preferring fantasy to reality is certainly a point of view, while failing to discern the difference is a shockingly dysfunctional point of view.

Well, I’m still waiting for 2007 to provide evidence of a third gamete apart from ova and sperm, to “prove” that sex isn’t binary!
But I’m just a retired doctor, what would I know about human biology... oh, wait.

Interestingly I didn’t start with the toilets issue but my DD 13 did when she was talking to her friends. She stood in the bathroom and said ‘do you want boys in here?’ They were horrified - girls of this age are very precious of their privacy.

Don't start with bathrooms as that is a harder conversation and requires an understanding and empathy of others who may have different views and experiences than them.

Think about starting with sport, as it is a matter of fact that males have an advantage over females in sport and they tend to have a strong view on fair play.

Move on to refuges as they may be able to understand the fear and issues for vulnerable women and children.

It's hard for girls that haven't yet built up a life time of caution and fear about enclosed spaces and males to get their head around issues with sharing bathrooms.

One thing I have pointed out to my DD - this applies over many areas of life - is to watch out for name calling and whataboutery. Look behind the insults. Very few things in life are totally right and/or wrong.

Relate it to her simply using examples of girls her age. Good examples can be found in the Middle East / Asia - all countries where trans women are recognised as a third gender, for example, have horrid attitudes to women who are born female. Thai culture, for example, has started to welcome trans women into the working world in ways females never have been and never will. Indian schools still discriminate against females by insisting on white uniforms despite sanitary products being unavailable and so girls her age simply can’t go to school during their period. Trans women don’t have the same issues and usually have a childhood full of male privilege as a result.

@OldCrone

I couldn't agree more.

There is a time and place for a discussion where, as a parent, you have a duty to inform your children of varying sides of an argument and sometimes the topic means it would be beneficial for the child to see a particular point of view.

It's a difficult one; there is such a fine balance between allowing your children as they grow to figure out things for themselves, find their own views and make their own paths, whilst at the same time being guided by parents with the best intentions

I have been lucky in this department. DSD (15) brought it up with me first, as a pervy lad in her class was claiming to be a girl and was being granted entry to the girls changing rooms and such and she had a huge problem with iti I did ask if it was just as he was pervy..but she said that just made it all the worse and she would be uncomfortable with any male..said shes vaguely uncomfortable with girls tbh but understands why that gets done, but definitely not with boys!

DSS (17) didn't seem to think much of it, or never mentioned it but his first proper venture into the waters was on behqalf of his sister. Got very very angry and nearly got himself excluded due to this perv in the girls room thing above^ One of his best mates now is trans, however, trans as in 'follows different stereotypes' rather than 'feels wrong body' (though claims to be a girl) so he doesn't really get it as he says how come hes not still a boy, just a boy with a different style to most other boys?! Which again, makes perfect sense really..

DSS (13) is just baffled by it all. Doesn't understand how on earth people can be getting so mixed up with male and female are such clear things, regardless of clothing styles, hair styles, likes, etc.

So I have been lucky thus far to not have to deal with a 'you are a terf!!!!!!' type teen yet.

she came out with the usual one-liners and called me a radical feminist - not that she could define that, she just knew that to be a RF wasn't a good thing.

Depressing, but this isn't something new. Demonisation of older and wiser women has always been part of how patriarchy maintains its stranglehold. You say she's bright; she'll more than likely change her mind as she grows up and experiences a bit more of the world.

When I was a kid it was just plain old feminists who were made out to be man-hating witches. I suppose they have to be a bit more specific these days, now that "'feminism' = equality = progressive-sounding plus services dick = yay!!!" has become an accepted and widespread line of subconscious thinking.

(Off to actually read thread now.)

I talk to my DD about this amongst the many things we discuss.
She's a bright kid and I can't make her think one thing or another. I can talk about my own opinions and experience and I can point her towards reputable sources of information. I can guide her but she will make up her own mind.