How do you talk to teens about misogyny and trans issues?

Would you say “it’s also important that you understand the principles of astrology before you reach a conclusion” ?

Of course not. What's important is understanding the psychological purpose of astrology and all other incoherent nonsenses.

It's a religion, and I treat it the same as any other religion when talking to my child. We talk about where the ideas come from and why, and what role the religion plays in both society and individual lives, benefits to the individual versus costs to society and others, as well as the blatant falsehoods. I don't need an in-depth knowledge of every different religion in order to discuss them and encourage my child to think critically when drawing conclusions.

That said, it is useful to delineate the "trans perspective" because it's important to point out the logical error made by those who've yet to correctly locate the source of their problems within the patriarchal sociocultural context rather than within themselves.

Kind of like how in A Level Philosophy you end up learning a shitload about religious beliefs, so you can deconstruct them all and find the flaws and fallacies.

Would she have really said 'well, it's nice that you share my sentiment but it's important that you also understand the reasoning behind the trans perspective before you reach a conclusion'.

Well, no, because the “trans perspective” is incoherent, untrue nonsense. Would you say “it’s also important that you understand the principles of astrology before you reach a conclusion” ?

It’s called “pluralistic ignorance”. In social psychology, pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but incorrectly assume that most others accept it, and therefore go along with it.

From my interactions with people who work in schools as well as what I've read online, it seems that whether or not the teachers believe in it, the children are still being taught it.

For example, one woman I know who works as a school administrator said that she had been instructed to refer to a female pupil who identifies as a boy as 'he'. She was given the impression by the headteacher that this was a legal requirement, so she had to comply, even though she doesn't believe in genderism herself.

I thought we were talking about providing all the facts

The problems is these kids have not been provided with any facts by schools using stonewalls theology; they have been presented with a belief system as though it were fact.

Out of the people in real life who I have spoken to about this, the only one who was a 'true believer' was a recently retired teacher.

Are you suggesting that all the schools who are publishing 'trans toolkits' on their websites are actually ignoring them in practice? What are you doing in your school to halt the spread of this toxic ideology? Because if most teachers don't "believe it or preach it", why is there not more protest from teachers and refusal to implement these sorts of guidelines? If your analysis of what 'most teachers' think is correct, I would have thought these 'trans toolkits' would never have seen the light of day.

I thought we were talking about providing all the facts to allow them to reach their own conclusion? That's why you would.

The conversation seems to come up in most of these cases because the children have already heard the opposing viewpoint but not the other side. I also don't know how I could teach something in a non biased way when it is based on a sexist foundation, and I can't see a way around that.

To me, the biggest issue is that this is all very immediate in the scale of time. Force legislative changes in quickly so that society feels it is a done deal and just has to live with it. Instead of doing the long and arduous work to enact positive changes in line with evidence that has been proven to be true with no obfuscation.

An equitable solution will take time, just as it always does. It does however also require investment in independent research and collation of data and to have the socially stigmatizing labeling removed to enable this to happen.

Oldcrone,

I don’t need to read ‘threads’ to find out what teachers think (unlike you, I suspect). I work as a teacher and have many friends who are teachers. I actually discuss this ‘live’.

The fact that many local authorities are very PC,and this can be promulgated via ambitious SLTs into schools, does not mean most teachers believe it or preach it.

Maybe you should research beyond MN.

Also have a look at this to see what sort of 'information' schools are being given.

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-autism-stonewall-schools-guidance/

I don’t think teachers promote a one sided view. Do you know this to be true? I think, within the teaching community, there is also a generational split.

Read what the OP has said on this thread. The one sided view being taught in schools is what this thread is about. Have you missed all the threads about the 'trans toolkits' for schools being issued (and now being withdrawn) by local councils?

Othering not ordering

Oldcrone,

I don’t think teachers promote a one sided view. Do you know this to be true? I think, within the teaching community, there is also a generational split.

Identity politics reaps what it sows. The ordering of people with a different perspective to one’s own has been going on a good few years now and applies as much to this board as to young people.

I do feel, thankfully, that there is starting to be a reaction to it, now. Universities, especially the top ones, are finally waking up to its implications.

If you talk to teenagers as if you are giving them the Ten Commandments, you will (rightfully, in my opinion) be handed your ass.

Are organisations like Stonewall and schools and teachers who promote their one sided view being 'handed their ass' by teenagers? They are only giving one view and calling anyone who disagrees with them a bigot.

If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

I don't think anyone has suggested doing otherwise. The problem is breaking down the barrier of 'anyone who disagrees with what school / my friends / Stonewall has said is a bigot'. It's getting them to listen in the first place.

If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

Yes. And then they can process it all and make their own decisions knowing that it may change in the future.

But they need to be able to look at it critically and know what the basic facts and science is as a foundation.

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-autism-stonewall-schools-guidance/

Similarly, if children were being taught in school that the earth was flat, it would be the duty of the parents to make sure they are aware of the scientific view, but if they were being taught real science, there is no need for the parents to teach them flat earth theory.

Young people are very influence by peers and their experiences. They tend to listen to the anecdotal over the statistical.

Most will have experienced trans people as friendly and confused kids. They will have had a great inclusive time on ‘pride’ day with plenty of kind gentle ‘trans’ people.

You put the above together with the ‘kindness’ message, which is very trendy in schools now, and it is no wonder that they see the gender critical position as anachronistic.

They really don’t care about sharing bathrooms and a lot of proud young women have no time for positive discrimination, believing that they will succeed on merit (so a natal man becoming a women’s officer is not an issue to them). Sport on the other hand does resonate. I think a lot have no idea how many natal men are now winning at women’s sport.

If you talk to teenagers as if you are giving them the Ten Commandments, you will (rightfully, in my opinion) be handed your ass. If you ask them questions and explain how there are competing rights, and how to explore the issue further, you are more likely to (gradually) make them see your side of the argument.

They just don't have an issue sharing their spaces with 'genuine' trans people who want to be part of their group and 'one of the girls/boys'.

What is a 'genuine trans person'? Can you give a clear and unequivocal definition of such a person? Obviously you're not referring to the stonewall definition which includes (amongst many others) crossdressers.

How do you distinguish such a genuine trans person from a non genuine one in a real life situation?

Teenage DD didn’t see why anyone would have a problem with male in female facilities until a friend who had been raped told her how scared she felt.

Experience of sex inequalities grows with age. I would vastly prefer that it didn’t.

ursula I think that you are still looking at our efforts to prevent the erosion of women’s rights as being phobic. You say that you don’t agree with self identification. Do you then believe that with medical intervention a person can change sex? This is a simple yes or no? And if no, why is it poor parenting to ensure that your child also understands this?

Do you believe that males loose the benefits of male puberty with estogren? I happen to believe the evidence collected by Dr Hinton and others (due to lack of longitudinal evidence collected by the athletics organizations) that says that even with years of treatment a body still retains its advantage. Why do you believe that this is wrong to tell a teen?

At the same time you can tell them that everyone should be free to live the way they wish as long as they do not cause harm to others (including eroding another groups rights). And that they deserve their own rights to ensure their safety just like any other group based on ability, religion, and country of origin. Plus as a parent we should be already modeling inclusivity in how we deal with people on a personal level. Inclusivity except for where our rights are impacted.

I don't think young people even care whether you can change sex in many cases. They just don't have an issue sharing their spaces with 'genuine' trans people who want to be part of their group and 'one of the girls/boys'.

Of course young people don’t. I wouldn’t have cared about ‘equal opportunity’ in the workplace either til I experienced a toxic work environment. I also wouldn’t have cared about males playing sport with me because I already played sport with boys. However, I wasn’t an athlete who was training for competitions and losing to boys who had merely socially transitioned either.

As a young person, I had a very narrow view of how this issue would effect me. But it is not just about toilets. And it is not just about acceptance.

We've also talked around how language changes and actually, how people don't really change much from one generation to another but society does. She sees the distinction between sex and gender and some of the reasons why it's important.
We've talked about how attitudes to sexuality has shifted over the last generation or so and kids growing up now now who are gay or lesbian should find it a bit easier than my peers did when I was her age.
My DD does find it curious that on the concept of 'gender identity' I draw a blank - it means nothing to me. She was surprised to find out how modern both a term and concept it is. I don't have a gender identity, I am a woman. That's it, to me everything else is preference or personality.
We agree that trans for many people is an extreme from of body modification to enable the outside of someone's body to reflect how they feel on the inside. Provided that person is an adult and capable of understanding what that will mean, then that is their choice.
She is naturally a fair and inclusive person, and we both agree that no-one should be made to feel afraid or lesser because of their sex or gender, but how to achieve that is complicated and not everyone will get the outcome they want.
Lockdown walks have given us lots of opportunity to debate a range of topics!