The Good Fight

I just watched and felt the intersex storyline was a cop out. I do acknowledge it was handled better than other shows might do it, and the ‘be kind’ petition can fuck off.

I hope we see more open discussion of the issues. How can people hear those arguments and say “oh but they experience such hardship” to justify prioritising feelings over science?

I was hoping there'd be a thread about this. I too was at first heartened by the robust presentation of the biological advantages, but disappointed by Liz's capitulation. I think the arguments made upthread (last year!) are very interesting though, and can see the argument that it was subtly handled, and that an outright GC position would have potentially detracted from the space it gave to consideration of the issue as a complex one.

I'm watching it on C4 but not got to this episode yet.

Wow i'm in the UK and we only just got this series/episode now! Almost a year after this thread!

The endocrinologist annoyed me by saying that testosterone was the only way to differentiate males and females! Like even I know that's not bloody true!

This show is (finally) on Channel4 but I thought this discussion was worth highlighting again. On one hand I think the show felt very American in the balance of the arguments (the reviews I read are all very protrans), and the final conclusion. On the other it did cover a lot of the important issues so I wonder what the bulk of the American audience felt.

It used to be a week behind on More 4 for prior seasons but obviously not this one.

The show airs on CBS All Access, a pay to view subscription service in America. You can sign up and watch via a VPN. I think it airs on a few terrestrial TV channels on this side of the pond as well, though most people probably watch it via streams or torrent. Terrestrial channels tend to lag about a season behind on all these American shows

The Good Fight is a bit hit and miss, as a show, but there's some fantastic satire of the Trump administration on display, in addition to some well-deserved criticism of the Democrat machine.

The issue of Adrian being asked to stand for President - not so he can win, but to serve as a black face who won't drop out embarrassingly early in the campaign - mirrors the experience of Julius Cain as a black Republican judge. In both cases the men are offered tokenistic positions of power and have to consider whether or not they can make them work for their own purposes in accepting. And then on the sidelines you have Liz, supportive of Adrian generally but biting out "would it kill them to hire a woman?" and trying to hide her annoyance as she corrects his pronunciation of Kamala Harris's name.

Like I say, the show does some things well. It misfires on other counts though. There's currently an awkward plot running about Liz having a fling with a younger male member of staff, with the implication that their attraction to each other is based mostly on the frisson of crossing racial lines. (She's black, he's white, they're "just experimenting".) You can see what they're going for - an exploration into the way subconscious biases can fuel attraction, and a look at how the balance of power isn't always clear cut in relationships. (Does it fall along lines of race, sex, job title, actual influence with the "big bosses"? How do those lines blur sometimes?) The execution of these plots can be sloppy, but generally the show runners are trying to do something topical with them. Your mileage may vary on the effectiveness, is all.

How is everyone watching it? I really enjoy it but can’t find season 4 in the Uk.

I watched The Good Wife right up to the end, and started The Good Fight, but couldn't really get into it. Might give it another shot, though...

@Lamahaha its a great series but be warned in season 3 Michael Sheen is a guest star and does an accent so awful I had to put on subtitles and mute the scenes he was in after a few episodes

I really enjoyed it but on a side note I was really disappointed when Boseman accepted to run for president just so that he could be the token black person.

I'm coloured and sometimes I wonder if the diversity things opens doors so this kind of thing does us no favours.

I feel the last few episodes tried to take on too many issues although they did it well and did their bit in making the viewer face up to certain issues.

I watched The Good Wife right up to the end, and started The Good Fight, but couldn't really get into it. Might give it another shot, though...

I agree it seemed a bit unlikely for a 17 year old intersex girl not to be aware of her condition - especially as a swimmer in training for the Olympics! I'm no expert but it feels like she would have had quite a few medical check ups in the lead up to that.

The set up was very much a last minute twist, but overall I was surprised and impressed by the inclusion of the intersex character in the narrative. Time and again we've seen intersex issues and language co-opted by the gender identity brigade, to the extent where I think a lot of people honestly aren't sure what the difference is.

I didn't expect that the show would come down so firmly on the differences. They make it really clear that although Piper tests for a higher testestorone level, her body doesn't absorb this testestorone and so she reaps none of the benefits - unlike the transwoman character Sadie.

Maybe it was just me, but I also felt the narrative treated Piper with more sympathy. The court felt quite rehearsed in its attitude to Sadie. Everyone was afraid of putting a foot wrong, everyone felt there was some way in which they "should" be behaving - some script they ought to be following - but they didn't really know why. It wasn't instinctive kindness, it was instinctive fear. (See Liz's incredibly weak "the younger generation just get this more than we do" line back at the office.)

By contrast, everyone's reactions to Piper's plight felt like they were coming from the heart. Piper was about to lose a spot she deserved to keep, through no fault of her own, because the system was set up to favour a transwoman over her. Not only that, but her entire sense of identity had been turned on its head in the most public and humiliating manner. The moment when the judge asked "does she know she'd be classified as that?" was particularly upsetting.

There was also a marked contrast between the ways Piper, Sadie and Melanie behaved in the courtroom. Sadie cried on the stand when the spotlight was on but was dry-eyed and angry when unobserved in the audience. Which leads me to think Sadie's predominant genuine emotion was anger at having this privilege questioned. Piper never got to speak at all, but sat crying silent tears in the audience. Predominant emotion: devastation. From Melanie's facial expressions and what little we see of her, I'd put her predominant emotions as hurt and confused. Three "girls". Three emotional responses. Spot the one odd one out.

I've watched it now - yes, actually I think that was pretty good - I think it's actually a bit telling that they explained many of the issues, but when it came to the petition, it was pure emotion, no reason at all - I think that was probably carefully done on purpose.

The only thing was the intersex ending - in the US, a what - 17 year old girl wouldn't find out in court that she had CAIS - it would have been noticed and investigated by then - but still, even that was handled in a way to make people think I think.

I haven't watched this, but something I find in general is that if a show takes a particular stance to o obviously, it often undermines the story and even makes the argument less convincing.

It may not be a bad thing that it's not obviously pushing a GC agenda.

Excellent post @contactusdeletus

I really can't think of another mainstream, feminist show that has handled this issue in a similar way.

Every other programme I can think of that has handled this like SVU or Greys Anatomy hasn't spelled out the reality of the situation for viewers who perhaps are uninformed about the issues, they've just gone with the oppressed/ lets be kind angle.

The Good Fight I thought presented both sides which I thought showed up the weakness of the other side. I think it was almost subversive in that you couldn't say that they didn't present all the TRA arguments but also showed the pressure they put on people directly or indirectly

I think they also represented the "no debate" element when Liz was questioning Sadie and was tanking her case just so that she wouldn't make Sadie feel uncomfortable by daring to question the fact when that when competing as a male was nowhere near olympic level. I think its really well juxtaposed with the people we've seen them cross examine before and how no other question would be seen as too touchy

I wonder if they'll continue the storyline and if Adrian is put forward by the DNC as a candidate if his participation in this trial will cause him to be "cancelled".

I went into this episode prepared to hate it, but was actually pleasantly surprised by how gender critical it ended up being. It's clear the Kings (the show runners) weren't prepared to risk the maelstrom of shit that would have come from taking an overtly gender critical stance. But they went much, much further than I was expecting.

1. The structure of the case itself. A young black girl from a lower income background trained her whole life to make it to the Olympics, and then lost her spot to a privileged white male who had only transitioned in the last two years.

2. As a male, the swimmer had repeatedly failed to place in the top twenty. He had made it nowhere near the Olympics. As a female, suddenly "Sadie" secured a top five spot. The show makes this clear to us. Not only that, but it's suggested the Olympic committee deliberately delayed testing "Sadie" until they could be sure of testosterone levels just low enough to meet the regulations. Basically, the committee wanted a winner so bad they were happy to manipulate events and put a biological male on the women's team. They gave Sadie an unfair advantage.

3. Not only that. The show goes into explicit detail about the many unfair physical advantages "Sadie" already has. "Sadie's" testosterone levels may be lower than the average man's, but they're still stratospherically higher than that of any biological woman.

They even put a graph on the screen, with the average woman's level of testosterone as a slim bar at the bottom of the page, and the average man's level as a bar of similar size at the top of the chart - and in between the great chasm of space where transgender testing falls. The show doesn't dwell on it overmuch, but it's brightly coloured and serves as a fairly striking visual aid all the same, even if all you do is glance at it.

They also discuss the increased muscle mass and lung capacity of anyone who has gone through male puberty, and the unfair advantage this presents in women's sports.

4. The judge.

The judge comes off as a reasonable everyman. He's not a bigot, and he's doing his best, but he's struggling to wrap his head around some of the arguments put in front of him. He asks what the difference between sex and gender is - and the show accepts that there is a difference, which feels like a minor victory in the current climate. At one point, when he discovers that "Sadie" still has male genitalia, he's visibly shocked. He also pushes for the truth, even when it risks making him look bad. When "Sadie" becomes emotional on the stand, he isn't perturbed. He just firmly and politely asks his questions.

Yes, his ultimate ruling keeps "Sadie" on the team at the expense of an innocent intersex girl, but you get the sense he doesn't take any pleasure in that. He's just bound to follow a stupid law that clearly isn't fit for purpose.

5. Weak arguments on the transgender side.

The show was quite subtle here, and it shows in reviews of the episode - not one of which seems to have picked up on the gender critical elements. Mostly reviewers framed this episode as Adrian selling out his morals to win a case.

But I'm not sure that's what the episode itself presents. Adrian himself is firm on his decision. And he's allowed to be, because, of course, he's a man. His arguments are solid and fact based. And the client, as mentioned, is a young, inner city black girl. She's not privileged at all, so I don't see how anyone could argue Adrian is selling out his morals for wealth and power. The reviewers who attempt to argue this seem to be taking three disparate plot threads - Adrian's Presidential bid, Adrian's willingness to turn a blind eye to the potential corruption of his lover, and Adrian's "transphobic" arguments in this case - and merging them into one. But the show itself doesn't connect this thread to the other two at all.

In fact, it does a pretty good job of making Adrian look right, if you're prepared to see it that way. The girl he's defending is underprivileged and the arguments he's fighting against are frankly weak.

"Anyone who has gone through male puberty and still has such astronomically high testosterone levels compared to a woman has an unfair advantage in women's sports." That's Adrian's argument, and what is it countered with? Nonsense false equivalancies like "Simone Biles has an unfair advantage because she's short" and "I can train so much harder now that I'm happy".

These arguments are weak, and all through the episode there is this reliance on an appeal to emotion to support the transgender side. The arguments are basically: "swimming alleviates my dysphoria so I should be allowed to take this girls spot" and "going to the Olympics would make me happy" and "my happiness matters more than anyone else's (because I'm trans)" with a side of "I don't want to have to acknowledge my unfair advantages (and I shouldn't have to, because I'm trans)"

These are all piss poor legal arguments, obviously, and they don't carry the day for Sadie or the Olympic board.

Breaking here, though I have more. Sorry this is so long, but I'm a fan of the show and am fascinated by what they've done here. I really can't think of another mainstream, feminist show that has handled this issue in a similar way. I'm curious as to what that says about their perception of their audience, and how the tide might be changing

I think they were trying to show a balanced view but the women in the practice were siding with the transgender woman which was probably realistic but felt like a moral judgement

I took it the other way, I thought it showed the absurdity that we've seen Reddick Boseman defend absolute monsters and we've never seen another petition by the staff members. I thought it showed the enormity that women are having to fight against. I thought the contrast of the last few episodes was good as well that we know how the associates still feel that race is such a major issue in the US but were still fighting against a black woman and supporting a white trans woman for her place on the team while declaring them to be the most oppressed.

Its probably the first programme I've seen that has actually spelled out the difference between sex and gender and that most TW still have a penis.

I think the motivations of the trans character was made very evident by the script and I think the unfairness as well

I agree I would have liked for them to have gone farther and I agree it was a bit of a cop out that there happened to be an intersex woman on the team who could be shoved out

I watched it and was so let down by the outcome of this. It was interesting the point about muscle memory. I felt the whole thing unjust, but I also felt everyone felt it was unjust.

TBH I wasn't listening properly enough to give a true opinion.

I love The Good Fight and adored The Good Wife!

@ThePawtriarchy Exactly, so many "Yes!" moments to start with, then gradually turned into a let down, only to finish with her being the bad guy. Disappointing to say the least.