Owen Jones on Twitter today

AFAIK Karen was/is used appropriately in the articles and pieces I have read

No it wasn't used "appropriately". It was used to create a negative stereotype. Appropriating a real name and turning that into a character to be mocked and ridiculed was not "appropriate"

Flo, this isn't something I can really get angry about. It's better to be pragmatic and aware than it is to be angry. But to your point - that white men have hijacked the term isn't really my problem or my fault to fix. That's the thing with misogynistic men - they're going to be misogynistic with or without Karen. AFAIK Karen was/is used appropriately in the articles and pieces I have read, and at that, before 'Karen' became a meme the persona it describes is not a new phenomena. I don't need an apology from anyone, nor have I asked for one - honestly on MN I really try and stick to the MiL and general chit chat threads because anything race-related does not register. It's just how it is. I wouldn't join a forum for vegans then expect them to understand the brilliance of a bacon sandwich.

I think it was originally used to refer to women like this:

www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/white-woman-caught-video-calling-black-women-n-word-said-n1034746

However, that is not how it is now commonly used in the UK. In the UK any of the women could be classified as 'Karens'.

We shall not apologise!

I'm not making a complaint, I am expressing an opinion: 'Karen' has not just been appropriated by a few white men. Most people using it as an insult on the internet don't seem to be using it in its original context.

This isn't a problem without consequences because its really important that girls are taught that they can complain, that they can stick up for their rights.

I am curious that you seem to direct your anger at women who object to the way 'karen' is now used in the UK, rather than at the white British males who appropriated it in the first place?

What are the characteristics of a Karen?

Vlad Could you describe the type of person who should be called a Karen?

Power to the KARENS!!!

We shall not apologise!

Lovely!

it's really none of my business what other parents choose to do.

I said as much upthread if you'd read my response to Flo.

Your defence of the Karen meme is pretty appalling.

Thanks. I think it's great to finally have a catch-all term that describes a particular type of person. I've been on Mumsnet for ages and putting aside the Karen meme even discussions on race here are always wayward so I don't expect anything less but to be shouted down about the Karen thing or any race-related issue. I tend to just stick to the MIL threads but occasionally get drawn in then remember why I don't get drawn in etc etc

I'm not apologising to anyone, of any race and either sex, for not accepting being dismissed with a shitty misogynistic meme just for being a woman standing up for my rights and being assertive. Hope that helps.

I'm not either.

VladmirsPoutine

By this token do people have strong views on boarding school too?

Not sure what your point is. I would not personally have sent my son to boarding school. His school had boarders and it's really none of my business what other parents choose to do.

Your defence of the Karen meme is pretty appalling.

I'm not apologising to anyone, of any race and either sex, for not accepting being dismissed with a shitty misogynistic meme just for being a woman standing up for my rights and being assertive. Hope that helps.

does not detract that there is a certain type of entitled white woman who really goes out of her way sometimes intentionally sometimes accidentally to make life absolutely unnecessarily difficult for black and WOC.

No, but this is the top definition in urban dictionary

“ Karen
gives raisins to kids on Halloween

drives an SUV to carpool her kids to soccer practice... better hope the ref doesn’t make a wrong call because she will sue!

love to use snapagram to post her workout selfies

after a long day of talking to managers and driving her kids around she sits down with her mom friends at book club and drinks lots and LOTS of wine
“oh my god Karen do you really have to talk to the Burger King manager every time they forget to give you a ketchup packet.“

“LOL! Yes!! I have to Facebook and instasnap it to all my friends to make sure everyone knows to watch out LOL!!!”
##karen #soccermom #probablyaboomer”

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Karen

If Women of colour are mentioned on urban dictionary, it isn't on the first page.

Even in the US, many people apparently now use it to mean 'woman whose opinions have no value'. It seems to be synonymous with basic bitch and soccer mom.

The urban dictionary definition is linked in this Guardian article on social distance shaming. Race is not mentioned, a 'Karen' is just somebody who wants to speak to the manager. The message is clear - don't complain, you wouldn't want to be a Karen.

That white men and teens are using Karen as (another) tool of misogyny does not detract that there is a certain type of entitled white woman who really goes out of her way sometimes intentionally sometimes accidentally to make life absolutely unnecessarily difficult for black and WOC. I still to this day don't really consider feminism as part of my identity because of the sheer amount of Karens I have come across along the way whose identities are centred around feminism but have apparently zero regard for women unlike themselves.

“That said, JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke.”

No it’s not. All I’ve seen is white men and angsty white youngsters using it to have a go at older white women - basically their wives, mums and grans. that Karen was started by black people as an in group think is something i was completely unaware of. Why are women still getting shit thrown at them for being insulted by white men and kids who appropriated a term started by black people

I think she has deleted her twitter account, but from what I remember she wasn't aware of the US use or connotations of 'Karen' and 'Becky'. Names don't translate well across countries.

The solution to the Karen issue is for black Americans to be allowed one thing white British people don't then attempt to copy.

If memory serves I think JB said Karen is woman hating and based on class prejudice. What she fails to account for in that interpretation is the erasure of black and women of colour / minority women with regards to the various types of aggression that whiteness has the propensity to commit. That it is co-opted by (men?) to silence women is separate to the actual point of referring to a certain type of woman as a Karen. As a WOC I have come across so many Karens in my time.

JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke

it depends who is using the name and in what context. Regardless of its origins, it is often used on twitter to silence women.

I have in the past raised points about passing chores on to poorer women.

I still think Owen Jones is a troll who targets feminists.

The piece in the Guardian about the cleaner having to put herself at risk by travelling across London on public transport, when she could be furloughed instead. That very much changes the balance of the cleaner doing that work vs a family making arrangements to clean for themselves.

I think this also applies to many other people being sent back to work on public transport for non essential tasks.

I still think Owen Jones picked up on this issue because he likes to bash women.

That was terrible r.e. Julie Bindel and women in prison. That said, JB's take on Karen being a slur is a joke.

I really don't know why she bothers sometimes; she gets a lot of abuse.

Nobody deserves abuse, but if she bothered to do some research, e.g. went beyond twitter before pronouncing on Julie Bindel, she might receive less criticism.

Because I agreed with the notion that "outsourcing wifework" is nonsense. Therefore if parents decide to send their kids to boarding school it is their decision. It's more that I think women can never really win - whatever choices they make someone somewhere is waiting in the wings to pop out with criticism of some sort .

So what made your raise boarding schools on here?

I follow Ash on Twitter and given her POV I can't see that she would have meant that tweet literally. She wrote another thread recently about her mother and how she grew up which was subtweeted by Hadley Freeman and Janice Turner among others. I really don't know why she bothers sometimes; she gets a lot of abuse.