Male grooming behaviour

There is this thing that men can get a girl to do anything.
At what age does this become quite apparent to them, puberty?

Rotherham, Oldham, Oxford have all contributed to the crime of grooming recently.
Undoubtedly many other towns too.

Maybe there are some men who are community minded and caring and do things out of the goodness of their hearts but if they get offended by safeguarding measures then I'd rather they didn't bother, because all they end up doing is providing cover for predators.

No. Any community minded man who has had any training at all understands the need for safeguarding measures. They also behave responsibly, putting restrictions on themselves because they know that in making themselves ironclad they make it harder for abusers and potential abusers to get away with it. A scout leader who avoids being alone with a teenage girl isn't saying he doesn't trust her, that she may make a false allegation. He's saying that girls are safer when trustworthy men behave carefully.

I allow a little leeway for older people, new to safeguarding, who may genuinely not realise the extent of the problem. Just a little.

We expect little girls to understand exactly how to interact with stronger, smarter and more powerful grown men but we don't expect grown men to show any self control.

It's a definite attitude that men can't help themselves. That once the bit's between their teeth, they're incapable of stopping.

What was that survey where they were framing non consensual sex in different ways, and getting different answers.

And one of the questions was if you are already having sex and are turned on, and she wants to stop, if you don't stop, is it rape?

A shocking number of men said no. And it's not a rare attitude.

NAMALT Good men know all this.

Due to the many bad men I’ve known, even though I also have wonderful men in my life, that now reads in my head as, Not All Men Aren’t Like That.

We're not scared about speaking out
Agreed we're not scared to speak about this.
We want to speak about grooming
in all of its forms.
We need to speak about grooming in all of its forms.

I'd like to speak about the extent of male criminality in all of this.

I lock up my house before I leave for work, not because all men are thieves but there might be just one man about to take advantage.

NAMALT Good men know all this.

Which, taken to the logical next step, means all men are capable of it and just don't have the opportunity.

I think that's taking it a step too far. I see it as similar to any other criminal behaviour. At one end of the scale, there are those who create opportunities to offend. At the other, there are those who would never offend under any circumstances. In between those two extremes are the opportunists.

Which, taken to the logical next step, means all men are capable of it and just don't have the opportunity.
I'd disagree with with that. The majority of adult men are more than capable of keeping control.
I'd say it's more that abusers take the opportunity whenever they can as well as doing their best to arrange opportunities.

I read the number one risk factor for CSA in a family is overcrowding. When a girl is forced to share a room or a bed with an uncle or a cousin or a brother.
Which, taken to the logical next step, means all men are capable of it and just don't have the opportunity.
Which is just too much for people to

That just isn't true though is it? If that were the case, every man presented with the opportunity would take advantage and that simply is just not true.

It's just the umpteenth different version of "she asked for it" basically. Why we don't scream in pure rage when this shit is used against little girls I don't know

The rough sex defence Is well there are no words to describe what it is.

As others have said, the depiction of a girl meeting adult men for sex as just naturally exploring her sexuality is a huge red flag. We need to be able to talk about this.
The sex-positive crowd never take into consideration the psychological impact of casual sex; all things bring equal, women and girls have poorer sex with strangers than they do in relationships. There are studies implying women and girls regret casual sex more. Physically, women and girls are more at risk when meeting strange men for sex.
When you then suggest that it is normal behaviour for a fourteen year old girl to meet adult men for group sex, you've lost the plot entirely.
Like the news reports of the 16 year old girl who damaged herself by re-enacting group anal sex.
She damaged herself.
She re-enacted porn.
It's her fault.
She needs a colostomy bag.
Never mind that at some point she must have been in intense pain and none of the boys/men penetrating her stopped. Never mind that at that point it was clearly rape.
No. She did it to herself.

It's just the umpteenth different version of "she asked for it" basically. Why we don't scream in pure rage when this shit is used against little girls I don't know.

And girls are rude and unsociable if they dont relish the opportunity to talk to and interact and smile at strangers or sit on uncle ians lap. After all his step daughter does drugs and hangs around with a goth at school. Theres no way shes telling the truth

As others have said, the depiction of a girl meeting adult men for sex as just naturally exploring her sexuality is a huge red flag.

It is so obvious what is going on here, that I couldn't understand why posts on that thread were being deleted for discussing it. Then I queried one of my deleted posts, and after reading the response from MNHQ and thinking a bit more, it all fell into place.

Girls are never seen as victims. They always did something "wrong"
Because we don't want to believe that nice helpful selfless men are predatory.
We'd rather believe that little girls are coquettish and slutty.
We expect little girls to understand exactly how to interact with stronger, smarter and more powerful grown men but we don't expect grown men to show any self control.

I knew there'd be outrage if I said anything about being uncomfortable with his offer
Exactly, because we are supposed to be grateful that he is so nice. We can't express discomfort and we can't question his motives.
Why did he want to coach them? Out of the goodness of his heart?
If we are going to allow men to voluntarily work with vulnerable women and children, including the elderly and those with physical disabilities or learning difficulties, we have to have robust safeguarding in place because taking them at their word is just stupid.
Maybe there are some men who are community minded and caring and do things out of the goodness of their hearts but if they get offended by safeguarding measures then I'd rather they didn't bother, because all they end up doing is providing cover for predators.
If we assume all men have innocent intentions then we end up with scores of victims. If we assume all men have nefarious intentions then we upset a few men.
I'd rather go with the latter.

If we have these morally pure, amazing selfless men and we are so pathetically grateful for their sacrifices, we put them beyond reproach, morally. Whereas with the rich and powerful we just don't have the ability to hold them to account, because they are above the law and can buy their way out of anything, and sex offences are just one of a long list of crimes those men can carry out with impunity

Yes this is is where girls in particular lose out 2 fold. First we put them in the position in the first place to prove our trust in these amazing men who "wouldnt hurt a fly* and then when stuff happens we blame the victim

Girls are never seen as victims. They always did something " wrong"

When my children were young teens an elderly neighbour was very friendly and kept offering to coach them. I could never quite put my finger on why I was uncomfortable as everyone spoke very well of him and I knew there'd be outrage if I said anything about being uncomfortable with his offer so I kept stalling. Then I spotted an article in the local paper that he'd just been found guilty on historic child sex abuse on young teens

Grooming is very hard to spot and no one believes you even if you spot it and express reservations, until after of course when there's often outrage and confusion that no one said anything, ignoring the women who did and were shouted down

recusant-nine.com/recusant-nine/welcome2oldhampart1

You've all heard about what happened in Rotherham but how many of you have heard about Oldham? This is a on-going scandal. Look at the abuse that the whistle blowers have received.

In both cases the Asian councillors who raised concerns were attacked - accused of all sorts and attacked by the press. No wonder you havent heard about Oldham. Serisouly the allegations contained in this blog are jaw dropping.

My deleted post was about married men preying on teenage girls, and it was in reply to a post in which Rotherham was mentioned. Both posts were deleted.

I wondered what those deleted posts were for. Rotherham also came to my mind with reference to that.

A lot of the objections to our objections are being framed in terms of being prudish about teenagers naturally maturing and exploring their sexuality, but that's not it at all.

Most of us here were teenage girls and had to work out how to push back on adult male sexuality long before we were fully mature enough to understand our own.
Girls aren't being given the space to explore their own sexuality.
That space is constantly being overwhelmed by men and a society that tells them they are sex objects and it's natural to be treated like they are one.
Rotherham was a horrifying example of that and it's why victim blaming of those girls still goes on now.
As others have said, the depiction of a girl meeting adult men for sex as just naturally exploring her sexuality is a huge red flag. We need to be able to talk about this.

Pat*

Exactly.
But it's definitely a sympathy imbalance. The victims don't elicit enough sympathy because they aren't the "perfect victim" and the perpetrators elicit too much sympathy so we raise the bar for the victims so high that most of them can't make it and then use that as vindication for the perpetrators.
"Look, another failed prosecution, clearly he is being hounded."

We pay ourselves on the back for having a sophisticated legal system but we revert to popularity contests and mud-slinging all the time.

Yeah, it's one of those this thought is too scary so I'll reject it and get angry with the person who brought it to the forefront of my consciousness because I'd rather not have thought the implications of this through things.

Some men specifically set out to get themselves into positions that will make it easier to abuse, but there are many more who're opportunistic predators
The opportunism aspect is also too much for people to accept.
I read the number one risk factor for CSA in a family is overcrowding. When a girl is forced to share a room or a bed with an uncle or a cousin or a brother.
Which, taken to the logical next step, means all men are capable of it and just don't have the opportunity.
Which is just too much for people to deal with.
Much easier to pretend there are "animals" and "monsters" out there whose mothers never raised them right.

I agree with all that but when we talk about positions of power then maybe that refers to the guy who ran the IMF who raped the chambermaid (and whose life has most definitely not been ruined).
A scout leader isn't much of a position of power. What I'm suggesting is that we don't challenge the scout leader not because of fear or awe of his power, but because we can't bear to imagine that "selfless" men are predators.
We are psychologically ok with accepting rich powerful men as predators, it doesn't upset us as much as when someone we wanted to believe was good turned out to be yet another pervert.
If we have these morally pure, amazing selfless men and we are so pathetically grateful for their sacrifices, we put them beyond reproach, morally.
Whereas with the rich and powerful we just don't have the ability to hold them to account, because they are above the law and can buy their way out of anything, and sex offences are just one of a long list of crimes those men can carry out with impunity.

I get you, pickle, and I agree. Some men specifically set out to get themselves into positions that will make it easier to abuse, but there are many more who're opportunistic predators and that does in some ways seem to be the default setting, reinforced by the societal idea that that's what women are for anyway.