Young women don't know what a woman is

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are.

So your disability is one that there might possibly be a cure for, one day. What about the boy Lamahaha mentioned, who was born without some of his limbs? There is never going to be a complete cure for that, although the prosthetic ones might improve. Should he spend his entire life shouting at the world that he was born in the wrong body and someone should give him a new one? Or would it be better for him to accept his imperfect body and live the best life he can? Do you think that's 'giving up'?

But don't we all have to accept the things about our bodies which we don't like or feel are inadequate? Even for those of us lucky enough to have been born with healthy bodies there are aspects that we dislike or which prevent us from doing everything we want to do, and as we age, even more so. It's important to accept the things which can't be changed and adapt our lives accordingly.

For a condition for which there is currently no cure, adapting your life to your disability and accepting your current limitations doesn't mean that you have to give up on hoping for or looking for a cure. But not accepting this and consequently spending all your time being angry that there is no cure must be exhausting.

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are.

Exactly, for YOU. Hopefully for you there will be a cure.

But for many, especially people born with disabilities there is no cure. They have no choice but to accept the body they have. No one is saying they shouldn't get available medical help. They are saying there may not be a medical fix.

Should we tell children with genetic syndromes to never accept themselves, that they should be depressed and angry. Should we tell children with incurable issues to keep hoping and searching for the magic fix.

You have taken a perfectly reasonable comment illustrating why we shouldn't tell children their body is wrong - because telling any child their body is wrong, even one who many have disabilities - and applied it to your own personal situation as an adult, to then take offence.

If you want to live your life without accepting you disabilities, OK, crack on. You're an adult that's your choice. But we're talking about how to help children learn to mentally deal with having bodies that don't meet their expectations. Whether that be because their body doesn't function properly or because they have GID or body dismorphia.

It clearly says they have to accept their bodies, even if they're not working as they should. There's no room for doubt there. The statement is very clear.

It doesn't mention whether or not such children have had or will have any treatment to alleviate their condition. You are assuming that that means that all treatment would be denied to them. Most rational people would interpret it to mean that even after all available treatment has been carried out, some people have conditions which cannot be helped further by medical science as it is now, and they need to learn to live with their condition and accept their bodies for the sake of good mental health.

This doesn't mean giving up. It's not either/or. It's not total acceptance of how things are vs constantly shouting at the world about the lack of a cure. It can be just making the best of your life, whilst at every opportunity looking to see if there are any new developments which might help you.

Where does it say that this runs alongside medical or surgical treatment to alleviate anything? The statement is very clear

I think OldCrone described it well (thanks OC!):

They may be able to have treatments to help them live fuller and more independent lives, but for many, some level of disability will remain.

For many, if not most, disabilities, there is no perfect cure. That boy I spoke of pages back: he has now a grown man with artificial limbs. He knows that artificial limbs will never work as well as real ones. He has to learn to accept that.

Or take me. Two years ago I had a hip replacement to alleviate excruciating pain. The operation was a great success, and I can now walk without crutches, clean my home, live a full life.

BUT: I can't run very fast. I have some pain going up and down stairs. I can't sit in perfect cross-legged position or do other Yoga exercises (something I've done all my life) and I'm not very good at getting down on the floor and up to play with my granddaughter. And I know this is it; it's not going to improve, no matter what I do. There is no perfect cure.

I'm not going to whinge and complain for the rest of my life! I've done the big thing had the surgery, which I was reluctant (and scared) to do and my life has improved dramatically. But it will never be the way it was.

I accept my disability, having done all I can to relieve it.

I also remember, as a young woman, visiting a home for children with polio in my home country. What astonished me the most was the way they laughed and played and were so cheerful and friendly, in spite of the fact that their legs were in calipers. That was actually a pivotal moment for me. I'm sure that those children will have received all the treatment they possibly can but their legs will never be strong enough to carry them. And yet they demonstrated such strength of will and character. I was greatly impressed. I was just 19 at the time, and I've never forgotten that visit.

What I learned that day: we don't have control over everything in our lives. The only thing we can control is our inner life -- the way we respond to what life deals us, to mishaps and disasters. I learned that attitude is everything.

In this context, I would not interpret the words of someone who actually works with disabled children to mean they should not have surgery or other corrective treatment! That would be ridiculous. That's why I said it's a false dichotomy.

testing987654321

The post literally says that children

have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should,

where is there even a hint or a suggestion that any medical or surgical treatment runs even alongside this? It clearly says they have to accept their bodies, even if they're not working as they should. There's no room for doubt there. The statement is very clear.

issues that might not even effect them personally

Indeed, these issues only affect anyone who is female or male, so loads of us won't even have an experience of that, eh?

Hooves, I wrote that original statement, I have tried to clarify it for you. I didn't for a second interpret Moore's comments as meaning that children with disabilities should not have medical treatment. You have invented that for yourself to get offended about.
I am not going to try to clarify this again, as you constantly referring to your incorrect interpretation seems to entertain you, and renders trying to communicate with you a waste of time.

I am talking about physical disabilities and being expected to accept it, and learn to just live with it. A fact originally brought up by another poster. Using people with physical disabilities as a way to justify your arguments about trans gender people is offensive.

My comments aren't about trans issues, they are about physical disabilities and a posters argument that people with disabilities should just have to accept them. That is for the individual with the disability to decide,imo, not for others to dictate.

Hooves you talk utter nonsense and you know it. A man does not give up if he decides he’s not a woman. He never was and never could be. It’s not giving up. It’s understanding the truth. The moon does not give up on being the sun. It never could be.

You talk as if physical facts were subject to X Factor style magical thinking where if you believe in something enough it will happen. ‘Sorry that you can’t fly. I’m afraid you just didn’t want it enough’ 😂

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it.

No, for me acceptance is giving up. It means you stay as you are. Change comes from not accepting.

Regardless, what Lamahaha says is their opinion and they are absolutely entitled to hold it. However, that isn't what the original post said, which is what I've been objecting to.

Lamahaha

This is the post, in full

Michele Moore said she works with lots of children with disabilities, one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should, as it is the only body they have, so it can't be the wrong one.

Where does it say that this runs alongside medical or surgical treatment to alleviate anything? The statement is very clear

one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should

I don't want to accept my body as it is and neither, nor anyone else, is going to make me accept it. I will keep on trying to change it and seek treatments that can help me to change it. I don't have to accept anything because you want me to.

I hadn't seen this post of yours when I wrote my last post hooves, and I see that you have answered my first question. I think I understand a bit better now why you found the post about children with disabilities so offensive.

I wish you well with finding the treatment you want, but I hope you will also try to find some enjoyment in life along the way. I think what Lamahaha said is important here.

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it.

Because I was disagreeing with the poster who originally decided to bring people with disabilities into the argument. I'm allowed to find that offensive and to challenge it.

You seem to have missed some important points which that poster and others have made. I'll try to explain them clearly again for you so that you can understand why disability was mentioned.

For many disabled people, there is no cure. They may be able to have treatments to help them live fuller and more independent lives, but for many, some level of disability will remain. Do you think it is better to help such people to accept their bodies and the limitations which go with their disability, or do you think that it would be better to tell them that they have been 'born in the wrong body' and they should spend their entire lives railing at the world that they have the wrong body and demanding treatment (which doesn't exist) to fix their disability ?

Children who are confused about 'gender identity', largely because of the crap they are being fed by the media and in school, are being told that they have been 'born in the wrong body' and that they can have treatment to make them change sex. This treatment is not because of a disability, and will not enable them to live fuller and better lives. On the contrary, it is treatment which will make their sexual and reproductive organs non-functional and will make them medical patients for life, which is likely to be shorter than if they were not given this 'treatment'. Wouldn't it be better for these children to be accepting of their fully-functioning, healthy bodies?

I'm finding it hard to understand why you view the mutilation and sterilisation of healthy children as similar to treatment to help a disabled person to live a fuller/more independent/less painful life.

What we'll actually look back at this and think of is the Thalidomide scandal, imo.

Or lobotomies.

The person conflating those issues was the one who chose to state that children with disabilities are counselled to accept their bodies and the issues they present, rather than given surgery to alter them the inference being that anyone who identifies as trans gender should do the same.

This is a false dichotomy.

Please find for me the bit where she says that it's an either-or problem -- that they have to accept their bodies as disabled and not do anything to relieve the disability. That those without hands and feet should be left as they are, the deaf should stay deaf, heart problems should not be treated.

Because I doubt she said that.

Because is is possible to accept a situation, and still do everything you can to improve on it. This is an attitude advocated in many religions and spiritual traditions.

Nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game.

I often think this truly shows the ignorant childishness of it all in every way. Overprivileged, spoiled, wholly self centred, incapable of empathy or consideration for anyone else. It's just throwing around any word perceived as powerful that might make mummy give what's wanted. This is the movement of overgrown toddlers.

we'll look back at this like slavery

Nothing is sacred. Everything is fair game.

Disability is an umbrella term, it doesn’t exclusively refer to people in a wheelchair or without an arm. Physical and mental health disabilities are different, and disability is a spectrum. I didn’t see the original post Hooves replies too, but I think anyone with common sense can see any dysphoria, be it weight, race, gender, limbs is debilitating. And counselling to accept reality is the most appropriate response.

What we'll actually look back at this and think of is the Thalidomide scandal, imo.

...they’ll be like this 🤦‍♀️ going “what the hell was I thinking?”

It won't take that long. I give it 20 years at the most. We will all look back at the time when the society seemed to be tipping over into insanity, when people pretended they couldn't tell men from women. And these women will be the ones wearing the scars.

maybe in 100 years ...we'll look back at this like slavery

As the descendant of actual slaves, actual men and women who were stuffed into ships and put to work in the New World, of women who were beaten and raped by white slavemasters, I'm, saying right now, stop it. Just stop it. You have no idea.
How dare you even hint that the condition of transpeople is in any way comparable?
You render me speechless.

Sorry cross post - there are several conversations going on here!

Yes I know that and I agree. The problem is that they believe the opposite. They are convinced.

But your way of doing it appears to be equating disability with gender dysmorphia. Either it's the same type of issue, in which case a difference in treatment would be wrong, and ignoring the similarity would be wrong , or it's different, in which case bringing up disabilities would be irrelevant.

@Floisme they are very welcoming to gender roles, so much so, that if you do not follow them, it changes biology. I can’t think of a generation more accepting of gender roles. Typical 1950s housewives would be non-binary by today’s standards, because nobody exclusively adheres to gender/gender stereotypes/sexist stereotypes/whichever term you use.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras
I can’t think of any mental health issues, that don’t in one way or another, are at least somewhat debilitating. When we are talking about any dysphoria, it is difficult to live your life. Pro-ana as an example of a community that actively encourages abdysphoria you are larger than you are and has a dire effect on the body, I’m sure would not consider it a disability, but a lifestyle however I disagree.