Young women don't know what a woman is

It would be useful if you could answer the actual question because that's not what was asked.

I think if people decide that they don't accept their bodies, for various reasons, and there are ways to be able to change the body then that's up to the individual. That's not saying that it should be rushed into, or that people should be pushed into it but I think you all keep holding up the "born into the wrong body" is ignoring what people are saying. They are saying that there's a mismatch between what their body looks like and what emotionally or internally they feel it should look like. If they decide that they want to have surgery or take hormones to change the appearance of their body then in my opinion that's between them and their doctors because like hell would I accept or stand for anyone else telling me what I was or wasn't allowed to do with my body so I'm not about to tell anyone else what to do with theirs.

Hearhooves do you think it's helpful to children, whether disabled or not, to teach them that they may have been 'born in the wrong body'?

But it was you hooves I was reply8nh to

Then that post shouldn't have been raised on here should it? If you are only prepared to talk about healthy bodies? Why raise the subject of children with physical disabilities at all if it's irrelevant to the thread?

One group have healthy bodies - the other don’t. One may need medical intervention. The other doesn’t. Neither group is born in the wrong body.

As for ‘focusing on one tiny phrase’ - since it’s at the heart of the trans agenda it is quite important and I will call it out wherever I see this ‘wrong body’ ideology is at work.

Also calling out your timewasting interventions. Off on a zoom call now so you’ll have to see if you can find another constructive discussion to disrupt.

Binterested

How am I misrepresenting what was said?

You are focusing on one tiny phrase (the not being born in the wrong body) which we don't even know was said by the person quoted and conveniently ignoring the part I'm disagreeing with - the part about telling children with disabilities that they must accept their bodies and everything that comes along with them. That's what I disagreed with - not misrepresenting anything. I'm disagreeing with the message in that statement which, as a person with a disability, I am allowed to do. I think everyone should be presented with all of the options, including learning to accept your body as it is, and then letting the individual decides how they would like to proceed. That's not misrepresenting anything. That is disagreeing with a statement that has been made.

I understood we were talking about children without disabilities being gaslighted and groomed into believing that they've been born in the wrong body? But I know from bitter experience that once a certain poster turns this into something about their own experience, the derail will go on and on and on.....

Off to the dementors thread ...

Again deliberate misrepresentation. They are not told they are ‘born in the wrong body’ and that they can get to be their true selves by chopping off some functioning body parts. But then you know that.

Sometimes those bodies don’t work very well and we do what we can to improve that.

Which is what trans gender people are seeking to do, no? Trying to change their bodies to improve their lives?

No, the point was exploiting people with disabilities and using them to make the point that they are told to accept the body they are born with. Im disagreeing with that post.

Bait and switch. Bait and switch.

Michelle’s point is there is no such thing as ‘born in the wrong body’. If there was people with disabilities would use this terminology but they don’t. We are born in the bodies we have - we are not souls slotted into bodies and sometimes slotted into the wrong body. We are our bodies. Sometimes those bodies don’t work very well and we do what we can to improve that. But there’s no such thing as a body that doesn’t fit the soul that’s living in it. That’s supernatural bullshit. Magical thinking does not help children.

Lamahaha

I was responding to the post about making children with disabilities accept their bodies and their limitations. I fundamentally disagree with this

one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should, as it is the only body they have, so it can't be the wrong one.

attackedbycritters

But that's a different argument to the one put forward in the post about Michelle Moore.

But lots of us with disabilities choose to have surgery or treatment to correct or reduce or alleviate the effects of the disability. Do you think everyone should be forced to accept the body they are born with, even if medical treatments are available to change it?

You are speaking here of actual, physical, disabilities like the boy with no feet and two hands I mentioned above. Of course, he got treated for it, of course he was given prosthetic limbs as a poor replacement for real, healthy limbs.

Children who think they are the opposite sex don't have a disability, and their bodies aren't wrong. They have healthy bodies which should not be fiddled with as long as they are children -- including giving them puberty blockers which interferes with their healthy development.

I guess there is a difference between treatment to overcome a disability , to correct a fault, and a treatment to create a fault by destroy healthy and correctly functioning tissue

Binterested

The surgery I had for my disability was when I was a child (well, 15) and I'm immensely grateful that the surgeon suggested it, encouraged me to have it and persuaded my parents that it was the best for me as they had been dead set against doing it. I don't disagree that children should always be counselled to accept their disability and their bodies. If other options are available then I think they should be shown all possibilities and then helped to make their own decisions about how to proceed.

As an adult - have all the surgery you want. As a child no. And you still can’t change sex. All you are doing is chopping bits off. HTH

Michele Moore said she works with lots of children with disabilities, one key point she makes is that they have to learn to accept their bodies despite them frequently being awkward and difficult and not working quite as they should, as it is the only body they have, so it can't be the wrong one.

But lots of us with disabilities choose to have surgery or treatment to correct or reduce or alleviate the effects of the disability. Do you think everyone should be forced to accept the body they are born with, even if medical treatments are available to change it?

The results clearly show that most of those who 'believe someone is a woman because they say they are' actually don't believe that because of how those same people answer the subsequent detailed scenario questions. Which kinda proves that a lot of young women are saying this only because they think they ought to or have to

People genuinely believe all sorts of confused and contradictory things. I really think you have to accept that these women are not lying to pollsters out of fear - though what they have to fear from a pollster I am not sure - but that they genuinely believe what they have said.

Dh is a huge footie fan and I can remember when Glenn Hoddle was sacked as the England manager because he made some ridiculous comment about people being born disabled because of karma or something equally daft and there was quite rightly a huge uproar. How can we go from that to this in a relatively short amount of time?

So right lama The born in the wrong body narrative is so cruel and ignorant.
No one is born in the wrong body and I can't believe schools are being forced to teach our children this.

For the ones pushing this who're well meaning and a bit dim rather than actively trying to mislead it's always struck me that they don't seem to have interacted with a child since they were one themselves, as they don't seem to be aware that if you feed kids confusing nonsense they'll try to make sense of it as best they can, resulting in some very odd interpretations.

Yes, I think this happens a lot, though surprisingly even with teachers. There is a sense that young kids in primary school are cognitively ready to talk about even the most difficult subjects, so long as you present them the right way. Sexual issues, and genocide, etc.

Often the argument goes, well some kids have to deal with these things and have no choice, so we must be able to talk about them.

Not sure they are "Well-educated" as opposed to educated at length and great expense. So much education today seems to be about fostering conformity and orthodoxy rather than critical awareness.

In my experience, well educated professionals seem the most delusional of all, although I suspect in many cases, it's fear talking.

Never a truer word was spoken.