Young women don't know what a woman is

Slavery = feelings.

Oh my eyeballs.

@NekoShiro with the greatest respect what the fuck are you talking about?

Slavery. Slavery? How bloody offensive.

A closer comparison would be if I (with normal hearing) wanted cochlear implants. And any doctor who helped me with that would be breaking their oath.

An even closer comparison would be if a person with perfect hearing was demanding that a doctor should make them deaf, because they 'feel like' a deaf person.

Or this:
metro.co.uk/2018/10/11/living-with-body-integrity-identity-disorder-a-condition-that-convinces-sufferers-to-amputate-their-own-limbs-8023938/

If you're going to make a comparison with disability, it's not like disabled children having treatment to improve their lives, it's like those with no disabilities wanting to become disabled because they feel that their healthy bodies are 'wrong' and don't fit with the disability that they identify with.

Isn't that the point, people are realising they want to move past gender and sexual orientation being such a hard stuck label, I'm not surprised at all that young women are open to rejecting historical gender roles.

It's cus we have the Internet, it's never been so easy to have so many humans all communicating at once and people who havent felt comfortable with the roles and mannerism tradiontionally associated with their gender/sexuality have safe spaces online to share their feelings, I think thatits a big upheavel in society right now, just like when people realised that we shouldn't own people as slaves after spending many years sneaking into their homes and kidnapping them, but during that process of moving along I'm pretty sure a lot of people in countries like america were sat bickering over their god given right to own slaves just like people are sat here bickering over issues that might not even effect them personally, it's just an idea they don't like.

I think that in 50 years when those girls are elderly adults, their kids and grandkids are going to be a lot more open, accepting and loving towards people who are different, maybe in 100 years it won't be classified as being different anymore. And we'll look back at this like slavery, human beings have a right to live their life how they choose to live it, not how someone else forces them to even if that someone else is the current ideas of society.

Dammit I’ve been telling my sister - you’re not going blind, they’re just not wishing hard enough.

A closer comparison would be if I (with normal hearing) wanted cochlear implants. And any doctor who helped me with that would be breaking their oath.

Or someone that wished to be disfigured deliberately, then go through multiple operations to try and fix the disfigurement.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

You know full well that's not what I'm saying.

A cochlea implant doesn't give you hearing by the way. Its can help give some hearing, but it's not comparable to having functioning natural hearing, and it can't help all deaf people. It's not magic robotic ears. I know my son is deaf.

Not all disabled people can be helped, and even the ones that can be helped can often not be cured 100%. I spend a lot of time with children with disabilities, and belive me if they or there parents could fix them or identify their problems away they would.

Yes we provide help where we can, but we can't fix everything and at some point we have to accept our bodies flaws and all. We can't all just identify out of disability. The same as you can't identify out of your natural born sex. You need to learn to accept it. And surgery and drugs often do not help people come to terms with their metal health issues.

All those medical interventions start from a position of something not working right (for want of a better word) and the intervention is to fix or improve it. A body moving through natural puberty is "working right" and doesn't need to be halted, a penis or vagina is "working right" and does not need to be removed.
A closer comparison would be if I (with normal hearing) wanted cochlear implants. And any doctor who helped me with that would be breaking their oath.

So people are arguing that a child born, say with a hole in the heart - having (life saving) surgery is exactly the same as a girl who thinks ‘I feel like a boy’ and starts the medication route to cosmetic surgery? God help anorexics then on this basis.

Helloooooo? Has the world gone mad?

This actually all scares me a lot.

I've always been a bit of a rock chick and don't dress super girly.

Recently, now dd hair is longer, I started putting her in her brothers old clothes. I find the girls clothes too sickly sweet and she's a bit of a bruiser so they don't actually suit her.

But there's a little part of me that worries that if she gets accustomed to wearing boys clothes, when she starts school they start telling her she is a boy.

So a deaf child, who could hear with a cochlear implant, shouldn't have it because they should just accept their disability? I should have just accepted my mobility disappearing, rather than having surgery to keep me walking? Children with scoliosis shouldn't have surgery to stabilise their spines but should just become more and more disabled, maybe die? All of these children shouldn't have medical interventions, if they want them, but should have therapy to help them accept their bodies?

No-one sane would say children with disabilities should accept them and suffer with no medical interventions.

But that's they thing. They are told to accept themselves and get on with their lives. We can't magically change someone that is disabled into an able bodied person. We can try and help them, but most the time they have to accept their disabilities.

A blind child can't identify themselves into having vison. A deaf child can't will themselves hearing. A child with downs syndrome can't transition themselves into having the correct chromosomes. A boy that wants to be a girl can never become one.

Curious Did the poll ask a similar question about men? And if so, were similar results returned by the different groups in their understanding of what a man was? Most particularly, how did that young female group describe them - did they think that sex had nothing to do with biology for defining men too?

Because if there is a difference I’d love to know how they justify their holding of two conflicting positions!

If an adult wants to have any kind of surgery to alter their body and make it better fit their self-image, that's up to them. I can be critical of the reasons behind it, but it's their choice.

However, they should be the ones to pay for it. And a male altering his body to resemble a woman's doesn't magically become a woman, any more than the people who want to look like lizards or cats become those creatures.

The womanly brain and/or soul stuff is insulting nonsense and always reminds me of articles I've read by Victorian doctors. Ladybrains can't cope with things like higher education. Or reading novels.

Yes, young people wanting to rebel and bring down The System isn't anything new and I wouldn't care much for gender identity ideology if it stayed in the realm of harmless posturing the way many other youth movements have been in decades past. People being idealistic and hopeful and experimenting with (sometimes wacky) concepts; some doing it for the thrill of shocking their elders.

When I initially came across all the Queer Theory and gender identity nonsense, I thought it was like the usual harmless subcultures that emerge and fall periodically. Young people, especially women, calling themselves non-binary or agender or trans masculine or whatever. If it was just people trying to make themselves look 'cool' with a new haircut and some snazzy lingo, most people wouldn't care.

But it's turned into insidious propaganda - being peddled by all sorts of organisations, including the public sector. Children are subjected to this in schools - being told they could be born in the wrong body and there are a hundred genders to choose from, it's being pushed in our homes via TV programmes, newspapers and other media insinuating that people can magically change sex or are randomly 'assigned' one when born... There's a well-funded, systematic campaign to enforce this social engineering and turning refusal and dissent into hate crimes. Interference with legislation and public policy, usually on the sly with little or no public awareness and scrutiny.
Young women claiming to be non-binary (which is a type of trans but not trans... ) but still wanting access to hormones and even mastectomies.
Claims of how non-binary people are so oppressed and marginalised that they need to be acknowledged in the census and other areas of life as a distinct, oppressed category. 🙄

I hope as more legal challenges come forward and public and private organisations start to back peddle on the propaganda they've been trained to disseminate, that this ideology will lose its appeal.

And please op, remember there are many feminists who strong believe(know) that human beings born with male genetilia can transition into a woman, please re-educate yourself, you are making yourself sound stupid.

I'll just let that stand. Ladies, please re-educate yourselves. And don't forget to #bekind.

Young people are just so malleable and gullible. ^

I'm not surprised the young women and girls voted like that. They've been Stonewalled at school and this fight is their righteous battle young people want to rebel against their parents and change the world. It also gives them a choice of tribe.

In my day we were goths or Indy kids. We wore Greenpeace badges and wanted Nelson Mandela free. Fortunately for us we were unlikely to mutilate ourselves for our identity, except the odd piercing. No surgery involved.

In my day, earlier than yours, it was a rebellion against The Entire System, which we thought we could overthrow by opting out, going off to live in communal farms, and wearing flowers in our hair. Many of us actually did those things -- I did too. We lectured our parents about how the world is going to change so very radically and The Entire System was going to fall apart because We Knew Better. We tried to educate those stick-in-the-mud oldies.

For me, it all lasted a couple of years. They were wonderful years, involving a lot of backpacking around the world and great music. I camped out at Macchu Piccu and did the Hippie Trail to India. Young men were gentle and played guitar and had long hair, much longer than mine. And we didn't have mobile phones, we didn't take photos of ourselves all the time, and everything was in cash.

I look back fondly to those days. It was all so benign, and there were no bodies mutilated in the process. We didn't even get tattoos or piercings -- that came much later.

Young people (some) need to rebel, to go against the grain. They need to feel that They Know Better (see quote above); it's an ego-affirming way to establish dominance over one's elders.

It's all rather silly. One day they do most of them wake up. Hopefully before too much damage has done.

This is the first trend I've seen that does cause irreversible damage to kids. The sooner it passes, the better.

Feminists could be so popular if they would just stop feministing.

FFS educate yourselves 🤪

When I was young I didn't see the need for feminism. I thought the fight was won, at school, girls out performed boys if anything. I just wanted a boyfriend and to have fun. I wanted to be a cool girl and be liked. By the time I was 30 I was beginning to see what was going on.

Young people are just so malleable and gullible. I'm not surprised the young women and girls voted like that. They've been Stonewalled at school and this fight is their righteous battle young people want to rebel against their parents and change the world. It also gives them a choice of tribe.

In my day we were goths or Indy kids. We wore Greenpeace badges and wanted Nelson Mandela free. Fortunately for us we were unlikely to mutilate ourselves for our identity, except the odd piercing. No surgery involved.

there are many feminists who strong believe(know) that human beings born with male genetilia can transition into a woman...you are making yourself sound stupid.

Honestly, there a point at which the farce just writes itself. 🤣

Hooves, binterested understood the point perfectly well.

No-one sane would say children with disabilities should accept them and suffer with no medical interventions. That's not what accepting the body you have means.

It was the concept that no-one would tell a child with disabilities that they were born in the wrong body, they simply have to cope the best they can.

"Transgender" children are being told that their feelings of discomfort are due to "the wrong body". Rather than being given therapy to help them come to terms with the body they have, people are encouraging them to believe they need medication and surgery.

I hope you can see the difference.

I’ll go with not

I'm off to be nice in my nice feminist pyjamas. They have cats on them.

Night, all.

Rolling my eyes at the poster who repeatedly comes onto threads to rant incoherently about feminism hoping to derail the thread...

ANYway.
The Wings survey, did it clarify/resolve the circularity in the woman is 'anyone who says they are a woman' statement? Anyone who says they are a what then?

Or not

I’ll go with not

scrimpshaw

Well

Thats the thread over...