What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

Exactly, ScreamingBeans.

Just so,Totallyfuckedup. I guess because they know their arguments don't stand up to scrutiny, so they try to evade the issues.

It’s how those who demand that women move over and permits Male bodies people into female spaces, are unable to have a proper discussion and acknowledge that women’s concerns are legitimate.

They’ll deliberately twist what you have to say, pretend that they don’t understand you, in order to badger you and try to gaslight you into doubting your own words. They will pick out one comment or even word and go on and on and on about that, while twisting the meaning of it. They act all wide eyed and innocent, while saying “but you said....”. Completely disingenuous and only do it to change the whole dynamic of a conversation or to detail it completely.

imo it is a personal attack to pretend that someone is a tin foil hatter.

joining the thread a bit late as it appears to have decended into argument but - to be honest - you covered in your opening post OP.

As a consequence of what you described in your OP I've listened to right-wing commentators like "Louder with Crowder" and learnt so much! My pro-abortion views have been sharpened because now I'm engaging properly with smart people who disagree with me instead of just looking down on them. And on some issues my mind as been changed. It's been really good for my relationship with a family member who votes for Trump. It's been really good for me- I've stopped being a smug twat.

"I'm no longer so quick to dismiss other people's unusual opinions, or to label them "conspiracists" without looking as openly as possible into what they're talking about (including from sources associated with intelligent people not necessarily in the mainstream media). I don't trust Wikipedia (or Urban Dictionary) without question (which I shouldn't have anyway, but...). I have more respect for people who are willing to say unpopular things (e.g., left-wingers who don't like the EU). In general, I'm far more likely to take news stories with a pinch of salt. "

Nothing wrong with disagreeing, bit of a difference between personal attacks though

Sure thing Lemonade.

I'll be sure not to disagree with you in future.

Well I think so anyway

Personal attack and insinuating bad intentions just for differing opinion

Not sure FredF's Tunic, maybe because I said that someone was gaslighting.

I should have proof read. Not as many nappy fetishes

I would love to see more research into fetish. Years ago I worked in acute MH services, cross dressing was a feature for a high % of the men we saw. We also had nappy wearers much not so many
I do believe society can create a fetish. Like China with bound feet
I read about a country, I forget which, which had a particular problem with groping on trains. Sex clubs started putting mock train carriages in and griping on proper trains sky rocketed
Is it not well researched because it is largely men?

Fuxache who reported my posts and what for?

This deliberate targeting of feminists is so transparent.

Agree with you Sidsparrow, I took out a subscription to the Times because of how their journalists are telling the truth about this and I read The Madness of Crowds and I tune into Douglas Murray, Toby Young etc which I would never have done 5 years ago.

I'm considering switching my Unison membership to Toby Young's Free Speech union - they're more likely to defend me against a complaint of transphobia than Unison are and TBH I'm wondering why I'm giving them my money.

What a great thread!! Really interesting to read through - I agree with so much that's been said.

That the Spectator of all periodicals would come nearest to matching my current political approach.

Haha! Totally this!!

For me, it's that truth and facts are no longer relevant; bent or stretched, retold just to fit with their ideology. When we start losing sight of the facts then we're in big trouble.

Free speech is in jeopardy. Who would have though that! Again, very worrisome!!

I've always considered myself as left wing but now I feel politically homeless. In this, the left to me seems as ugly as far right politics - forcing an ideology on people, trying to silence hose who disagree, threats of violence! It's utter madness. I would say that this has made me much more open to other political views and opinions. And a very big advocate of a civilised kind of politics.

I've seen people cling on to some desperate things on these threads in order to avoid answering the questions put to them for hours or days on end but that really does take the biscuit.

I know! I decided a while back that this thread should be called "lockdown fun"...

I questioned a post saying that said if we were to believe trans women are women, then what else are we supposed to believe in? (such as lizards and little green men was two examples given)
I said that was David Icke territory.
The only thing being disagreed with seems to be the Icke bit as to some it's clearly not.
We'll just have to disagree, as if some want to go down the conspiracy theory tin hat route, that's up to them.

No, you've misunderstood. No one is saying we are supposed to believe in lizard people.
What they are saying is if it is possible to use messaging or education or political pressure, whatever, to make people really believe something that is clearly untrue, what other untrue things would it be possible to make them believe?

Most people think that it is difficult to get people to believe things that are manifestly false. But say, for example, we saw that the media, through re-education, make people believe that the sky had changed to be red, even though it clearly hadn't - you would then likely question what other things people might believe.

Lizard men were just an example of something it seems most people would not believe, like the sky being red.

Ah yes, the old 'goalpost movement at lightning speed'. Is that what they call bait and switch? Amazing the ways you can describe what is essentially lying.

Some people are lying, but I am pretty sure that there is a large group who don't realise what they are doing. They don't see the distinction, or they see the two points as connected but aren't able to articulate the connection they are making. Often that means that it is fuzzy in their own minds too.
Some people also seem like a combination of those. They are arguing in a manipulative way but don't realise it. Maybe they think that's how discussions are supposed to work?

I've seen people cling on to some desperate things on these threads in order to avoid answering the questions put to them for hours or days on end but that really does take the biscuit.

TWAW only fools those who don't know the difference between an adjective that modifies a noun, tall woman and Black woman for example, and a compound word which changes the meaning of the noun entirely, Seahorses are not horses, hot dogs are not dogs, trans women are not women.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains
David Icke believes in lizard-people, doesn't he?
Whereas the post you're referring to used lizard-people as an example of a bizarre belief - that is, the post expressed a belief directly contradictory to Icke.
But in your post, you seemed to be saying the post expressed beliefs similar to Icke's.
Did you mean to imply that?