What broader issues has the trans (lack of) debate opened your eyes to?

What's been done is a twisting of the definition of women to include males.

I agree with you that people can't just decide to change the meaning of a word to suit them.

WRT the definition of trans, I tend to go by Stonewall's definitions.

Where did I say I don't see myself as a woman?

You said you were trans.
If you're a biological woman, and trans, you'd usually see yourself as being male.

I'm just gonna leave this here. It's great

Fair enough, you do that, but it's what was being done though, twisting what being a trans man or a trans woman is.

Where did I say I don't see myself as a woman?

Lemonade you seem to have made the same mistake sexists have been using to keep women down since time immemorial.

"Woman" is not a gender identity; it is not a sex role stereotype.

I see myself as a woman not because of certain feelings, or because of a tendency to dress a certain way, but because my body is female. It's not an identity, it's a biological fact.

You can't just decide no it doesn't mean that and make your own version up lol

I'm just gonna leave this here. It's great.

Can you see any potential problems with not just identifying as a member of the opposite sex, but insisting on a special language and treatment?

I was also pointing out that, as a female woman who is also trans, there is no word for me, because male trans people have claimed it

So if you're trans and don't identify as a woman, don;t see yourself as a woman, why would you want to be described as one?
You'd see yourself as a man so surely you'd want to be known as a man?

Trans literally means that you identify as a member of the opposite sex though

No. It really doesn't. I suggest you go and look it up.

I would still be a woman, I would be trans - I would be a woman-who-is-trans. A trans woman

Trans literally means that you identify as a member of the opposite sex though, you'd be a man. A trans man. (Or transman if you're adamant that you don't want to put a space there,)
A trans woman (or transwoman as you prefer) is a man who identifies as a woman.
It's really not that hard, I mean WTF lol
You can't just decide no it doesn't mean that and make your own version up lol

Ah sorry. missed that - so you did understand really, it was just a dig at the use or not use of the space bar.

No.

I was pointing out that trans woman and transwoman are not the same thing. The former is always female, the latter is always male.

I was also pointing out that, as a female woman who is also trans, there is no word for me, because male trans people have claimed it.

Lemonade, we know what trans means.

We know how all the trans lobby groups define it, and we know how people who self-describe as trans define it.

Under their definitions, feminist women automatically qualify.

The space is important

Ah sorry. missed that - so you did understand really, it was just a dig at the use or not use of the space bar.
Fair enough then

I guess when you are soaked in a culture that used a special language

Because I have a different opinion to the majority and was just clarifying what trans means as some didn't seem to know, that means I'm soaked in a culture?
Oookkkkay

Because if you were a woman who was trans, you'd be a trans man.

If I identified as a man, I'd be a transman. Not a trans man. The space is important. I would still be a woman, I would be trans - I would be a woman-who-is-trans. A trans woman.

Thank you for demonstrating my point so beautifully though!

The influence of small undemocratic lobby groups has shocked me.

I spotted leaflet produced by a completely different interest group today but produced in conjunction with the police with their logo on it and yet full of legal errors.

I guess when you are soaked in a culture that used a special language, and you have to make a mental adjustment to learn that language, you then have to go through mental gymnastics all over again when you read plain English.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman, then that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans man (I'm assuming that you are female)

How am I contradicting myself?

First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman
No, I didn't.
I said a man who is trans and identifies as a woman is a trans woman.
A woman who is trans and identifies as a man is a trans man.
I don't get why people are finding it so hard to read my actual words?

Second line was a quote from poster should have been bolded

A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.

No. This is a transwoman. It's a sex role open only to males. They are not women-who-are-trans.
Well of course being a trans woman is "open only to males"
Because if you were a woman who was trans, you'd be a trans man.
They'd identify as a man.
They are not women-who-are-trans
I know. That's what my post said.

"other vulnerable groups of women, such as women of colour, disabled women, trans women"

Not only is it a clever sleight of hand, it also excludes feminist women (the genderfree) and replaces us with sexist men.

But, as we discovered here long ago, we're not allowed to use the m-word in any way, shape or form. Because it hurts their feelings, and ours don't count.

If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman
Yes. Trans woman.
If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex. So if I was saying I was trans, I'd be saying I was a man.
Therefore, trans man.

You seem to be contradicting yourself there. First you say that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans woman, then that a woman who identifies as trans is a trans man (I'm assuming that you are female).

A man cannot be a woman of any sort, so obviously the woman who identifies as transgender who I was referring to is an actual female woman, not a man who wants to be a woman.

I was referring to the poster who seemed confused as to what being trans is?

I don't think the other poster was confused about what being trans is. I think she was referring to the misuse of language whereby someone who wants to be something they are not claims the word describing people who belong to the category that they want to belong to as their own, thus making the people who actually belong to that category a subset of their own category and even pushing some of them out of their own category.

Why can't these men just live as feminine men and stop appropriating the word 'woman'?

The past few comments have made me realise there's another issue this debate has opened my eyes to, which is the power of language to shape thought. The use of "trans woman" rather than "trans identifying male" allows activists to portray trans women as a subset of the group women. So in a typical Guardian social justice article, you'll read something like "other vulnerable groups of women, such as women of colour, disabled women, trans women". It's a really clever sleight of hand. If they were forced to write "trans identifying males" or "men who identify as women" the sentence wouldn't have the same impact at all.

The same applies of course to the coercive use of "correct" pronouns such as she, her etc.

A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.

No. This is a transwoman. It's a sex role open only to males. They are not women-who-are-trans.

Hence all the rage and fury at us uppity women refusing to put the space in the middle.

If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex.

Ah - this is where you've misunderstood.

One doesn't have to identify as a member of the opposite sex in order to fall under the trans umbrella.

Equally, having gender dysphoria doesn't mean one necessarily thinks one ought to be the opposite sex.

Has anyone got the Stonewall definitions to hand, and the GIRES ones? And a link to the thread from a year ago in which everyone identified as genderfree might be useful too.

If a woman identifies as transgender, using normal rules of language, that would make her a transgender woman or trans woman
Yes. Trans woman.
As I said -

If a biological woman identifies as trans, they are identifying as a member of the opposite sex. So if I was saying I was trans, I'd be saying I was a man.
Therefore, trans man.
In the same vein - A biological man identifying as trans - trans woman.
I was referring to the poster who seemed confused as to what being trans is?
If you read comments about this topic in newspapers it's quite clear that many people think that a 'trans woman' is a woman who identifies as trans, that is, a female person who is transgender
Sounds like there's a lot of people out there who have got confused then, so at least it's clarified for people who are unaware as to what being trans means.