Julie Bindel on twitter

I agree, flomary63z. There is a fundamental conflict between their, as you say, idealism and pragmatism.

I read JCJ’s blog and found some parts strange. Having breathing problems for three months because Posie Parker went to a meeting in Washington is very concerning. I wondered why JCJ didn’t address her own naming of an alleged victim of sexual harassment and the alleged perpetrator. I thought Posie’s comments were well-made. But I like both of them and wish JCJ well.

It’s a shame so many feminists have turned away from Posie because she is a brilliant media performer. Her interview with Adrian Harrop showed that when she nearly made Harrop explode with anger while she remained totally calm. Her sticker, t-shirt and billboard campaigns all showed she has a flair for getting mainstream media attention. I wish she and Julia Long, another brilliant interviewee who did so much with “Get the L Out”, had more support from other gc feminists.

Credibility with who though? With people who want to throw you under the bus and call you a bigot when you protest?

They can and should do whatever they believe is right, but I'll tell you what, if I had a child headed down a path that could lead to infertility, loss of sex drive and removing healthy body parts, then I'd talk to anyone who would listen.

I really struggle to understand why that is so problematic.

Because the Mainstreamers (group 2) are claiming the Misgenderer’s behaviour is threatening the Mainstreamer’s credibility and is fuelling media no-platforming.

It threatens to muddy the Mainstreamer’s message as well as their livelihoods.

I just read the exchange between JCJ and PP on the blog. I like both women. I can't help but see this as fundamentally a conflict between an idealist (JCJ) and pragmatist (PP). They are talking past each other. I am confused why JCJ had breathing difficulties because PP went to USA - can't understand that, at all - but JCJ seems like a lovely person, and hope she gains further clarity and momentum after a much deserved and needed break from social media. PP does, though, come across as a bit more reasonable in the comments. Not to be 'that guy' but JCJ comes across as very INFP (MBTI). I am also INFP. But [flowers ] to them both!

“The rejectors are in the wrong here.

Anyway, this division has always existed in this issue and always will. The people who can step outside of the politics will achieve the most.”

Absolutely Stranger

It's a shame that the facts of the American mother who organised a meeting on the Heritage Foundation doing this because no left-facing orgs would help her are subordinated to the notion that accepting help from anyone other than the left facing orgs rejecting you is going to give grist to the rejectors mill. The rejectors are in the wrong here.

Anyway, this division has always existed in this issue and always will. The people who can step outside of the politics will achieve the most.

The point about left vs right is interesting, especially as it's something that came up a few times on the thread the other day

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3895487-What-broader-issues-has-the-trans-lack-of-debate-opened-your-eyes-to

I don't do twitter, so have missed all this and I don't fully understand it.

From what I can gather, it's just more identity politics bollocks isn't it?

One of the reasons I find FWR so interesting is because of the disagreements. And this predates TRAs. I remember when the main complaint against FWR posters was not to call us transphobes or bigots, but it was that the feminists were too academic and hard to understand. Although FWR posters have always been mean, apparently.

I've learnt so much from reading disagreements and arguments on here. Twitter just doesn't do it for me in the same way - perhaps it's because we're not fishing for likes and retweets here in the same way and because we're anonymous and can namechange, realistically no-one gives a shit who we are.

I could not care less about these disagreements. The only thing I care about is that it's possible to defend women and girls. We can only do that if we can define women and girls accurately.

It's that simple.

There have been several positives this week. Useful actions would be:

Write to Liz Truss in support of her defence of women and girls and with any actions you want the government to take.

Write to the pshe departments of schools (and senior staff) pointing out that the cps advice has been withdrawn.

Write to your MP with concerns.

I disagree with self-ID because of the obvious risks, but honestly most GC discussion I read is just hot air and bickering tbh.

bflatmajorsharp I have read extensively and followed this debate for many years. I rarely post here because there is a very young trans child, with a public profile, in my family and I fear outing myself and causing a family rift. I'm not new to this or to the politics of the left.

I made my earlier post straight after reading the exchange between JCJ and PP on the blog, after reading throughout the day all the unfolding views resulting from JCJ's tweets this morning. To be fair I lost my temper at JCJ's claim that she had no choice but to distance herself from what went on in the USA and that she couldn't breathe properly for three months after. That same claim about the necessity of distancing has also been made by other academics and it implies a ridiculous amount of power in those that would otherwise criticise them. It achieves nothing but discord in the GC community.

What gives PP her power and clarity is that she doesn't let her aim get knocked about in her head by worrying about what others think of her.

I think this culture of public distancing is akin to no-platforming, just less honest.

I gave up my Labour party membership in 1997 when Harriet Harman started demonizing single mothers, so maybe I'm less astonished by women being screwed over by the left today. At the time it was like losing my religion, so I have some sympathy with trying to keep one's world view intact by instinctively battling against contamination from the right, but ultimately it's restrictive thinking.

The smoke and mirrors of TRA tactics and double-think and magical thinking makes everything incoherent. Forget right/left, it needs tackling from every possible angle.

I am getting profoundly sick of the concept of “distancing from”.

For heavens sake, if we all had to start every post on here by naming all the other users we have once disagreed with over something, we would never get to have interesting discussions. It really isn’t necessary.

I don’t post on twitter, so it may be that I live in a different universe, and maybe, if most of your life and your thinking is all about publicising it onTwitter, having spats in public makes sense. But it does seem that these spats are causing as much damage as Posie going to a meeting at the heritage foundation.

Wether the handful of academics on Twitter are trying to self-appoint as leaders, I couldn’t say. I think lashing out at anon accounts is arrogant and ignorant, and It does come across as trying to create a hierarchy.

I think both JCJ, who is not in academia, and Jess Taylor are trying their hardest to align themselves with more senior and better known academics, in situations where it risks coming across as playground attempts at being accepted in to “the popular”s clique. Though I totally understand why they would do that.

The party political or left/right issue is a dead end. The world has changed, especially as the left in Europe and the US is having an almighty identity crisis. We can’t wait for ‘the left’™️ to get up to speed.

I find it fascinating that of all the known actors in this fight, Posie is the one with the most astute political analysis of the situation.

Basically this comes down to two tribes.

Some GCs want to be able to freely misgender TW in public.

Other GCs know they won’t get anywhere near the mainstream media or keep their jobs if they openly misgender people.

Once you see that everything becomes clear about what is really happening. All the class and political stuff is a distraction (although there are some elements of that).

Group 1 is really angry at group 2 for not using their public platform to misgender (or ‘call a man a man’).

Group 1 says group 2 are perpetuating the patriarchy and siding with males.

Group 1 says TWAM. Group 2 says TWATW.

Group 1 says group 2 have appointed themselves leaders.

Group 2 all use their real names which they can do because they’re not misgendering (other than the odd sex offender) for example JB usually will call her transsexual m2f friend she.

Group 2 distance themselves from group 1 not only because they openly misgender, but they also have been the ones to ally with the political right Eg PP/JL and the HF. (Yes JB has published in right wing media - minor complication).

Group 2 criticise some of Group 1 for hiding behind pseudonyms, which they have to do because they would probably lose a lot if they were caught misgendering people. But they transmute this criticism into a class slur: well you can afford to use your real name because you have class privilege... etc etc.

That’s how I see it anyway.

I am exasperated by this. I can't be bothered to read a 98 tweet long thread when frankly there are far more important things to do. They all need a time out.

Interesting point MrsSnippyPants. But who else do they think will sort it out with a Conservative government with an 80 seat majority?

unwashedanddazed from what I've read, JCJ is very clear that she isn't trying to appease anyone by publicly distancing herself from PP and JL's politics. Or more non-politics, I think.

PP is very clear that she doesn't care what politics someone has as long as they can come together on the woman=adult human female and that the dangers of trans ideology being imposed on children and young people. JCJ says that she can't support any allegiance with orgs like the Heritage Foundation, however much they share views on the other issues.

If you haven't been imbued in politics for years, I think it's hard to understand how central it is to some peoples' lives. Ditto, if you have, it's hard to understand how it isn't central to others lives.

Have a look at the exchange between the two at the bottom on the comments section on JCJ's latest blog - it outlines the impasse of the past couple of years and current hostility between them.

But yes batshit crazy to thrash out in the public domain, but important for people who feel that they have been bullied to name who they perceive to be their bully, so people having a break for a bit is probably the best thing, for their own well being and also for the broader feminist cause.

Hi @LouiseMoody!

Wasn't going to post again on this thread but just saw you replied! I asked upthread if someone could point me to your work on the trans issue. I'm keen to read widely but couldn't see a website in your Twitter bio. Is there much of your writing in this area that isn't behind an academic paywall?

Thanks so much.

I can't believe that all these damaged egos are still crying over the fact that over a year ago PP and JL were impolite to a powerful person with a dangerous agenda. Or that they attended some meetings held by people with a different political perspective to those with the egos. What the actual fuck?

Who exactly are they trying to appease when they try to distance themselves from the actions of PP and JL? In whose eyes are they trying to appear pure? Are the opinions of anime obsessed wankwipes on Twitter so important to these academics that they feel the need to trash other women?

I admire all of them in various ways, but this is making the best of them look batshit crazy.

I’m on a social media hiatus so I didn’t see all this.

I loath being lectured about being anon. Many women don’t have a bloody choice, for a myriad of reasons, and those who accessed enough education and contacts to make a career in academia and journalism sometime seem to miss this spectacularly.

My only personal contact with JCJ was positive. She was one of very few academic feminists who was openly supportive of genderfree while it was going on. She even flew the genderfree flag for a while. Most of the “professional feminist” crowd, with a few notable exceptions, criticised it or ignored it.

On the wider issues, BustedWench makes a pertinent point that women who don’t plant their flag as being firmly on the left get lambasted by the same people who fawn over Harry. And MrsSnippyPants suggestion about motivations, given Truss’s actions, is food for thought...

Floral

I've just seen that an American pro-Democrat woman has tweeted at a woman who has accused Biden of sexual assault, saying she believes her, but Biden is still her guy. That's where this bollocks ideology-over-supporting-other-women gets us.

I'm logging off for a bit. I'm actually sickened.

ahumafemale are you saying that JCJ has used the techniques that TRAs use?

There's an interesting exchange in the comments section of JCJ's blog about this. Posie has posted a long comment, and Jane gives her pov.

Honestly, this is quarantine fever.

I don't know anyone who's found the last week a walk in the park.

Its a shame all this is going on as floral says after certain steps forward recently, especially the bravery and hard work put in by some, but just like the maniacal behaviour my eldest has had to day and the ratty irritation of my husband, you'd have to be stone cold hearted not to be finding the current climate insanity inducing.

We are all living on social media right now and it's doing our fucking heads in.

I think it's fair enough to call someone out for any implication that their trauma (cos that's what we're talking about) gives them the right to treat others badly. It can be an explanation as to why they do, but not an excuse.

It makes no difference who has the biggest trauma, who is most impacted by it, but to suggest that when someone says they were hurt by something that they're then not able to be critiqued in relation to it, even by someone who odds on went through at least as bad situations, makes no sense.

In fact it's exactly a technique that TRAs use.

Well, you said that from what you know her experience isn't especially worse than anyone else's, which is a bit different.

Like you, I didn't read all the tweets and do agree with you that it's up to individuals how they use their own social media.

I did not mean to imply that JCJ has not been deeply affected (she clearly has). All I've said was that, unfortunately, her experience is not unique, and that I don't think it is a reason to publicly name, and criticize people, that you do not personally know. A 98 tweet thread which has resurrected a painful episode for some looks very much like the bullying that she has regrettably experienced in the past. And given the personal, unnecessary nature of the attacks, I think I'm being quite charitable.

I think there's been a general acceptance for a long time that the Labour left has abandoned women. Julie Bindel amongst other feminists have used right wing press like The Spectator and Telegraph as mouthpieces for years as the used-to-be-leftists have sat on their hands and cowtowed to the gender ideologists.

I think it's true that once you feel like you're winning and that having a 'common enemy' isn't enough to unite you with others, the cracks start to show.

It's unfortunate, very unfortunate that they were played out so publicly. I think people like Selina Todd and Rosa Freeman use Twitter much more sensibly and self-protectively than esp Julie and Jane.

That said and with all due respect Dr LouiseJMoody, it's not really on for you or anyone else to decide that someone's experience 'isn't especially worse than anyone else's'. Being bullied isn't a game of top trumps and there's not necessarily a clear correlation between extent of harm caused to you and your mental health.

Although it's more than fair enough for you to call Jane out for naming you in her criticisms if they were unjustified.

The blurring of the public and private worlds that SM encourages, and illustrated by Jane's moving between discussions within Twitter and slack groups, sends many people around the bend it would seem.