What is the moral difference between sex work and other forms of work?

me: What's the word for when someone doesn't want to have sex but they're not able to refuse?

exponential: "People have different views about sex."

So "sex" is your answer.

You equated rape with being fined for being late to work. You equated rape with managers withholding small amounts of deposit money.

When you put "not being able to refuse sex" through a purely labor view, you minimize rape and admit you don't think it's possible to rape an indoor prostitute without falling back to sexist old stereotypes about black eyes and scratch marks proving refusal instead of a woman's spoken refusal being enough.

The 2009 report of Suzanne Jenkins Beyond Gender: An Examination of Exploitation in Sex Work mentioned above here I discover is largely behind a pay-wall.

A freely available summary is available here.

It is interesting as it was the first very large scale survey of those prostitutes working via the internet.

Pertella As I eplained below 18 it is considered child abuse-NOT WORK
And I never said sexwork is like other sorts of work (it is not a job like any other)-but provision of a service for pay is work-to that extent it is like other work.

Sometimes I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

Oh, ok. So another way in which sex work is not like other work.

Got it.

No not work-it is child abuse-gottit?

Child abuse? So not work at all then?

Does this fall under the 'dire' end of the 'spectrum of experiences' you mentioned upthread? One of the crap experiences were supposed to tolerate because there are good ones to balance it out?

Pertella So what's the employment status of prostituted children then?

It’s called child abuse

thinkit Rape, sexual assault, assault is a very particular violation of body and mind – traumatic -yes it can be-but prostitution is not rape.

I know there are some on the radical feminist fringe who claim it is as the woman would not have sex with the man if she were not paid so the sex is unwanted-so therefore it is rape.
Prostitutes have been raped say that they well know that rape is not the same as sex in prostitution.

People have different views about sex-for some it is incredibly intimate and should only be reserved for marriage or for those you love, for others it is more recreational. Some think sex steals part of your inner soul others do not.

Over 200 current or ex- prostitutes who described their experiences on Mumsnet
Some enjoyed working as prostitutes. A few said they enjoyed the sex-or did some of the time others that they never enjoyed it or hated it and others that it was neutral (like washing the dishes) or that it was sometimes mildly unpleasant (like cleaning behind the fridge) and some that it was mostly boring or routine like going to the dentist. A few described their work as empowering many did not. Very few said they were assaulted or raped in their work many never experienced any violence and they reject the view that they had no choice in which clients they see and what acts they performed

Those reports are similar to experiences described in large scale surveys of prostitutes working indoors Beyond Gender: An Examination of Exploitation in Sex Work here and On Our Own Terms : The Working Conditions of Internet-Based Sex Workers in the UK here

In the latter report Out of the top seven characteristics chosen to describe their work, six of the characteristics were positive: 91% of sex workers described their work as 'flexible' and 66% described it as 'fun'; over half of respondents (56%) found their job 'rewarding', 'skilful', 'sociable' and 'empowering'. The main negative descriptor (the second most popular) was 'unpredictable' stated by 76% of respondents which continues to establish the precarious nature of sex work as an income generator. On the other hand, comparatively few selected the more negative descriptors for sex work. Indeed, only 15% believe their job is dehumanising and 14% believe it to be exploitative ( p7 & fig.1)

Both both these reports were on prostitutes working via the internet (who are the majority of prostitutes in the UK)

Now there are abused and coerced prostitutes who have a shit time-mostly involved in street work (which is probably about 20 % or less of the prostitution in the UK).

I am not saying these people don’t matter-but what I am saying is that the view of prostitution promulgated on threads on Mumsnet bears little relation to the experience of most prostitutes.

So what's the employment status of prostituted children then?

Pertella sexworkers are self employed So you are claiming you didn’t say this now?

Yes they are self-employed in managed premises-just like as some hairdressers rent out chairs to independent hairdressers (who are self-employed) and the hairdressers pay a fee to the salon owner the prostitute will work in a managed premises with a similar sort of arrangement.

…. many of the women working there have been there for a long time because it suits them perfectly - a few hundred quid earned two days a week, and they never have to see any clients outside of the parlour so they can keep their personal lives completely separate. Plus, they get the extra security of not working alone, and they don't even have to deal with idiots on the phone or anything (Quote from a SAAFE thread)

Management practices in parlous vary-some take a percentage, some take a fixed fee. They are supposed to screen clients but many don’t as the management is often only interested in maximising the money they get rather than looking after their staff.

This is why proper employment legislation would be important-as it is in the decriminalised situation in New Zealand

sexworkers are self employed

So you are claiming you didnt say this now?

The pro-prostitution crowd like to forget the basics about human psychology and boundaries. Rape, sexual assault, assault is a very particular violation of body and mind - traumatic.

Ordinary day to day hard work might be tedious and difficult but jobs like cooking, cleaning, caring, labouring is the basics of survival and living. To barter time and skills in these areas is not a violation or trauma, it's how a group of humans gets along.

"She is not talking about things such as rape or violence"

"not being able to refuse clients"

not being able to refuse clients

What's the word for when someone doesn't want to have sex but they're not able to refuse?

TehBewilderness I was particularly taken with your assertion that prostituted children are self employed. Troll on, troll

Where did I say that? I did not-pants on fire

the ban on blood donation on anyone who has had sex for drugs or money

The ban applies for three months and is in addition to the usual exhortation not to give blood as a means of getting a HIV test.

insideandout3 I've read Pitcher's garbage article before well you have a very selective reading-but then I expect that from you lot. So let’s go through it:

From the Abstract: Recent policy debates in the UK and Europe have tended to frame sex work as consonant with trafficking and sexual exploitation, often drawing on the most extreme cases to exemplify the position of sex workers. These examples are frequently based on the experiences of specific groups such as street-based sex workers, who tend to encounter different working circumstances from their indoor-based counterparts and may present a broader range of social problems. Yet existing research evidence shows that street-based workers form a minority of sex workers in the UK……..this article considers how inaccurate or partial information has been used to present a misleading picture of the sex worker population in the UK

So where is the garbage?

You then go on to quote from the discussion section Treating commercial sex as work would in principle enable the infringement of sex workers’ rights to be addressed through labour laws but you did not quote from the immediately preceding section The issues raised by participants working in commercial establishments such as parlours related more to management practices and occupational health and safety…… A clear message emerging from the research was that criminalisation inhibits sex workers’ ability to work safely and their capacity to exercise agency. Treating….

It is clear from the context that the author is talking about protection from management practices that can exist in some parlours-such as fines for being late, taking deposits from the workers and not returning them, not being able to refuse clients.

She is not talking about things such as rape or violence which as you say are police matters.

You then claim that I said some prostitutes get raped every day, some don't get raped every, it evens out in the end which is a bare-faced lie, you try to wriggle out of admitting it’s a lie by saying it is equivalent to
There is a spectrum of experiences in prostitution -you can see that in Mumsnet threads-from the good to dire. Abolitionists like to cite only testimony from “survivors” and present those as typical. It would be more honest to recognise some have ok experiences while others have crap ones.

Pretty dishonest I would say.

constantly citing those with the worst experience as typical as something that could happen to any of them, because they are women having sex with men for money or drugs.

FTFY.

They should be more honest

Says the person who lied about me a few posts ago.

Then after trying to pass off a quotation Copying and pasting myself from that second threadFFS my job is pretty shit at times as coming from a real prostitute

I didn't at any point claim that a prostituted woman had said that. You have lied about me there.

You keep saying that prostituted women are only slightly more likely to have STIs when reporting to GUM. Yet you ignore me when I point out that women attending GUM are not representative of all women. Many women will never attend GUM in their lives. Women attending GUM usually do so because they have reason to believe that they might have an STI. You are also completely ignoring the ban on blood donation on anyone who has had sex for drugs or money. The Blood Transfusion Service, with their evidence-based policy and access to full population data, agree with me that prostituted women are more likely to have a blood-transmittable STI such as HIV.

Prostituted women have a broad range of experiences, yes. So do factory cleaners. Factory cleaners don't face rape, pregnancy, STIs, and violence from clients as part of their working life. Many prostituted women do, and that risk is inherent to prostitution. We would not regard it as acceptable for anyone in any job to be put at risk of pregnancy, STIs, or battery as an inherent part of their working life. If only 5% of factory cleaners was put at such a risk, there would be an outcry. Yet any prostituted woman, especially those frequented by "barepunters", is at risk of pregnancy and STIs. All prostituted women are at risk of battery.

That prostituted women have diverse experiences and some have positive experiences is irrelevant. They are put at unconscionable risk as an inherent part of having sex with strange men for money or drugs and that risk should not be acceptable in a civilised society.

As an exercise I looked at the posts from over 200 current or exited prostitutes I should have pointed out these were taken from Mumsnet threads

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg

I have an enormous distrust of university-based research about prostitution because university social sciences departments have been captured …. So for interests sake I looked up the affiliations of the academics whose work I have cited, they included a Centre for Public Health; departments of Social Work and Social Policy; Criminology (several different ones); Addiction Research; Geography; Social and Environmental Health; & a Dept.of Infectious diseases and epidemiology. I think to claim they have all been ideologically “captured” is rather far-fetched. The papers I cited are for the most part quantitative in nature-not a usual part of feminist or gender theorising.

I think the reason you distrust the research is it does not confirm your preformed opinions

Then after trying to pass off a quotation Copying and pasting myself from that second thread
FFS my job is pretty shit at times as coming from a real prostitute when it was from an abolitionist like yourself you say Irrelevant: the risks I listed are no less real…. and then the evidence you cite is from Belle de jour.

Yes there are risks of infection from sex (cystitis is not called the honeymoon disease for nothing) As I pointed out in a number of citations to proper peer reviewed literature (not from sociology departments)-the prevalence of STIs in prostitutes is only slightly higher than other women attending GUM clinics and in the decriminalised environment of Sydney where health workers could access brothels and perform screening the prevalence was similar to those in the general population.

I am sure on the street health in Holbeck is pretty shit (compounded by drug addiction, homelessness and violence). And we know that health of street workers is worse than those working indoors in Saunas, and massage parlours. So see Health needs and service use of parlour-based prostitutes compared with street-based prostitutes: A cross-sectional survey here and not from a sociology department but one of Obstetrics and Gynaecology.

This shows that there is a spectrum of health and experience in prostitution from the dire to good. But abolitionists insist on taking examples from the worst affected and presenting them as typical of all prostitution.

Sometimes you admit that there are some prostitutes who are ok and happy in their work but claim they are a tiny minority … for several hundred still lucky, still hanging on fine prostitutes when there are millions of poverty-stricken women . Well this is an example of the trope commonly put out by abolitionists that those who are ok with their work as prostitutes are “not representative”. For a good take down of these arguments see What is a “representative” sex worker? here.

You say you prefer to rely on on testimony from women who have exited. Well you should read the section from Hilary Kinnell’s article WHY FEMINISTS SHOULD RETHINK ON SEX WORKERS’ RIGHTS here , all is worth reading but the relevant section is entitled Personal testimonies and this section is worth quoting.
While I do not doubt that some experience their involvement in sex work in the ways we have heard so frequently described, I know numerous others that experience and/or conceptualize their involvement in sex work quite differently. This is one reason why I dislike and distrust reliance on “personal testimony” instead of objective research or collective demands, since by its very nature, personal testimony privileges certain voices above others

As an exercise I looked at the posts from over 200 current or exited prostitutes (who were the majority}. Looking at the posts of the exited just over half had what could be described as a positive experience. I am not claiming that the results are representative of those exited women who have experienced prostitution (in the sense that the proportion of each view matches those in the population of ex-prostitutes).The prostitutes who reported all have access to the internet and were overwhelmingly working indoors-only a couple had street work experience.

But what the results do show is that there is a range of experience and to claim that experiences of the “exited” or “survivors” of prostitution are always dire or traumatic (as abolitionists would have it) is simply not true. Neither is it true that all leave unscathed by their experiences. And very few (even those with bad experiences) supported the Nordic model.

So in brief abolitionists fail to recognise that prostitution represents a spectrum of experiences-constantly citing those with the worst experience as typical. They should be more honest

Page 6, "There is a spectrum of experiences in prostitution -you can see that in Mumsnet threads-from the good to dire...It would be more honest to recognise some have ok experiences while others have crap ones."

You should take a break from this thread.

What kind of person champions prostitution for several hundred still lucky, still hanging on fine prostitutes when there are millions of poverty-stricken women and children suffering literal enslavement and repeated daily rapes in the name of prostitution?

This, and the adverse impact that prostitution has on all women and girls through increased male entitlement and objectification. It is unethical to sacrifice the safety and dignity of women and girls as a class for the sake of a tiny proportion of women who could do something else for a living, and who would be minimally inconvenienced at worst by, or even benefit from, buyer criminalisation laws.

So for instance in the extract you copy and pasted FFS my job is pretty shit at times …. is not a quote from a real prostitute but from an abolitionist like yourself.

Irrelevant: the risks I listed are no less real. Prostituted women do risk thrush, BV, cystitis, anal and vaginal tearing, split lips, and jaw cramp. Pages 155-6 of the Belle du Jour book (so one of the more privileged "workers" in the "industry") says:
"A witness to my usual haul of cosmetic goods might suspect I'm buying for a minimum of six post-operative transexuals. So there is one chemist I go to for normal things and another for everything else." [Women who are not prostituted do not have to do this.] Magnanti then goes on to list "vaginal pessary (for irritation)" and "potassium citrate granules (for cystitis)" on her shopping list for the second chemist.

Real jobs don't cause these illnesses of the female reproductive and urinary tract.

I have an enormous distrust of university-based research about prostitution because university social sciences departments have been captured by queer theorists, the kinds of people who advocate for "Full Surrogacy Now" (the name of a recentish book) despite the reality that surrogacy means women doing reproductive work for more privileged men and women and pretend that sex has nothing to do with women's oppression (Sally Hines, I'm looking at you). I will continue to rely on stats from UN Women, the police, etc, and on testimony from women who have exited. Even those like Brooke Magnanti who claim to be OK with the work let very telling details slip out, like the shopping list I mentioned in this post, and the punter who pissed on her in a bathtub. (not envy)

Real jobs don't involve the client intentionally urinating on the service provider.

I've read Pitcher's garbage article before, it's nonsense and the whole premise is that violent crimes up to and including rape should be reconsidered as mere labor violations:

"Treating commercial sex as work would in principle enable the infringement of sex workers’ rights to be addressed through labour laws"

Violent crimes are not addressed through labor laws, they're police matters. A professor beaten to broken bones by a student doesn't file a labor grievance with their union, they file a police report.

What kind of person champions prostitution for several hundred still lucky, still hanging on fine prostitutes when there are millions of poverty-stricken women and children suffering literal enslavement and repeated daily rapes in the name of prostitution?

This thing where you say, "some prostitutes get raped every day, some don't get raped every, it evens out in the end." makes me really wonder about your motivations because that's selfish, dismissive, and callously cruel to a sociopathic level. It's a particularly evil version of "Not ALL men bash their whores!"