Voices we don't hear from - a child of surrogacy

Because it's a transaction involving financial compensation, Pink. I don't think the scale of payment is the fundamental issue, it's the nature of the agreement. For me, anyway.

It depends how you define "your baby"
Is it the baby of the person who carries it or the baby of the person who's dna it has?

In the UK it's illegal to pay for a surrogate. Other than to cover loss of earnings and to pay for things like maternity clothes. So how could this be seen as selling your baby?

More on the speakers here:

filia.org.uk/sunday-20th-oct/2019/5/30/section-2-button-3

The session at Filia last year on surrogacy was incredibly informative but pretty harrowing in places.

There's a podcast of it. Well worth a listen if you want to learn about what the surrogacy industry is really like.

I had absolutely no idea about most of this:

filia.org.uk/podcasts/2019/11/8/surrogacy-a-human-rights-violation-filia-conference-2019

We generally take a dim view of fathers like that.

My point is OP is talking about this like it’s a novel problem confined to donor conceived children, when it’s been occurring since the dawn of time and society hasn’t imploded yet because of it. There have been studies showing overall people who have been conceived using donor eggs/sperm or surrogacy feel positive or indifferent about how they were created, not negative or harmed as you’re assuming. Do you have any actual evidence that children created this way are harmed or disadvantaged in any way? I see a lot of anecdotal evidence, projecting and hypothesising on this thread, but not much in the way of hard evidence.

I know of numerous children created naturally who don’t know their fathers and have no relationship with them,

We generally take a dim view of fathers like that.

I haven't addressed surrogacy at all. Surrogacy presents additional issues to gamete donation.

But if the claim is that it's homophobic because it denies lesbians the opportunity to be parents, why doesn't the same argument apply?

Thanks for sharing

I’m not saying people can’t be involved in the discussion in issues that don’t directly affect them, I am saying people preaching about how selfish gay and infertile couples are for wanting biological children are hypocrites if they have biological children themselves. Having biological children is in itself a selfish act, regardless of how they were created. You’re not any less selfish because you were lucky enough to be able to have your own biologically children with your partner is my point. If you adopted your children then fair enough, if you didn’t yet you’re criticising others for not being happy with adoption you’re a hypocrite.

Who is asking people to be surrogates for them? If I offer to carry a child for my brother and his wife for example, what is your moral objection to that if all involved are happy? You have no evidence other than anecdotal stories from some adults who have taken issue with how they were created or how they were raised (like many children created “naturally” and raised by their biological heterosexual parents) to back up that there is anything inherently harmful to children through being conceived using donor eggs or sperm or born through surrogacy, so what grounds for banning them do you have other than your own moral outrage? I know of numerous children created naturally who don’t know their fathers and have no relationship with them, this is not a new “issue” exclusive to donor conceived children.

Cross posted with your last post OhHolyJesus. I have seen even higher numbers than 18.

I think it’s worth pointing out that before gay or lesbian people had the legal right to request AID, there were many instances where prospective parents made informal arrangements. I don’t think it’s practical or ethical to deny them the right to be parents. The research also shows that outcomes for children are just as good as for children of heterosexual parents.

I think surrogacy should also be an option but we need to accept that it may have negative consequences for children in the same way that some children conceived naturally do not have ideal, or even good enough parents. However, both surrogacy and fertility clinics need to be regulated properly. There was an item of the World at One last week about the exploitation of surrogate mothers in India and Thailand. I meant to post a link but I forgot and now I can’t remember which day it was on. Unfortunately, this is really hard to control. There was an awful case a couple of years ago in which an Australian couple rejected a disabled child born to a surrogate mother in Thailand.

As DNA testing becomes cheaper and more widespread, we also need to think of the consequences for children who discover they have multiple half siblings because there are no limits on the number of sperm donations their biological father can make.

It is often pointed out that medical advances happen more quickly than agreement is reached over what should happen ethically. Easier travel means that people can bypass things that would be illegal in their own country - eg sex selection of embryos. Interesting thread so thanks everyone and OhHolyJesus for starting.

Funny you should say that @OhHolyJesus, but one of my husband’s oldest friends found out that he was donor conceived a couple of years ago... totally by accident. He joined Ancestry DNA and a whole bunch of half siblings popped up.

His parents had never told him. He took it matter of factly but his sister didn’t.

And some time after, another half sibling popped up and he also didn’t know he was donor conceived. Beggars belief really.

So basically is your view Mirror that because lesbians deserve to have biological children and I assume you would apply the same to gay men, as we shouldn't discriminate against them either, so men who are in same-sex relationships should have rights to have women donate eggs and carry babies for them because they have rights to a biological child?

I don't know how you have got that from my posts. I haven't addressed surrogacy at all. Surrogacy presents additional issues to gamete donation. Surrogacy, and to a lesser extent egg donation, present unique risks to the surrogate or donor and demand more from the surrogate or donor than sperm donation. Surrogacy is a different proposition from sperm donation. The moral analysis is different.

I didn't say I had a right to a man's sperm. I didn't say I "deserve" to have children. Of course I don't. But in circumstances in which willing sperm donors exist, I don't think it is morally wrong for a lesbian couple to use donor sperm to have children. The happy, well adjusted children and adult children of lesbians that I know, and the studies of the children of lesbians, suggest to me that lesbian parenting is a positive thing that does not harm children.

If you don't suffer from x you can't be involved in a discussion around laws and policies related to it isn't a viable view anyway. Imagine if we treated everything that way! Only people who have had themselves or a loved one need an organ transplant get to contribute to discussions on organ selling or donation? They get to set the public policy?

some children need to know more about their biological family, maybe to the point that ‘donors’ may have to be disclosed.

This has been the law in the UK for ages now. I agree that there shouldn't be secrecy around donors and the children should be able to know about their biological heritage. My kids are welcome to contact their donor when they are old enough.

Stating that donor conception should not happen at all is very backward imo.

But I don’t think it is a necessarily a’ same sex’ issue.

No, it isn't, and I think it's the worst kind of power-levering identity politics to present it that way.

All kinds of people cannot conceive kids because of biological constraints, from lesbians to people with infertility to people without partners. It's no more homophobic to discuss the ethics of gamete donation that it is phobic of infertile couples or single people.

Lesbians can definitely have biological children. I am a lesbian and I'm sitting with my biological child whilst she goes to sleep. No-one pretends that a child can be the biological child of two women. You say that a lesbian ought not to have children through donor sperm and bring them up with her wife/partner - that this violates the child's rights.

You are asserting the existence and extent of certain moral rights - for example "not to be treated as a non-child" by biological parents - which presumably means the right of the child to be brought up by both biological parents.

How are you to justify the moral imperative for a child to be brought up by both her parents - that there is such a right - without showing that the child is harmed if such a right is not respected? You have to show that the right, the moral requirement exists - and it would be an unusual sort of right if it's violation led to no harm.

Anyway, I'm going to leave this now and get on with being a good mum and a good wife.

I think it’s very easy to sit here and say egg donation/sperm donation/surrogacy shouldn’t be allowed if you are heterosexual and have no fertility issues yourself. Preaching that people should be happy to adopt is hypocritical if you have your own biological children, yes there are thousands of children needing homes, so why didn’t you adopt one of them yourself? Probably for the same reasons as the people you’re criticising.

Having biological children is just as “selfish” and “unnecessary” whether they are created “naturally” or through other methods, people create children because THEY want children, there’s nothing altruistic about it. How many children created “naturally” have issues with how they were raised and their parents? My fiancée has suffered greatly due to her mother and her “parenting”, you can find many children from all backgrounds who feel they deserved better from their parents for a variety of reasons. Anecdotal evidence does not prove something is inherently harmful.

Except there is no such evidence of that harm or maybe it is beginning to come to light. But I don’t think it is a necessarily a’ same sex’ issue. I think it might be a wake up call to acknowledge that some, most likely not All, but some children need to know more about their biological family, maybe to the point that ‘donors’ may have to be disclosed. Millie said it wasn’t that she was a child raised to mums, it was not knowing about the biological father’s side.