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Women and Apostasy

81 replies

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/04/2020 09:10

Has anyone watched Unorthodox?
It's a fictionalised short story of a young woman from an orthodox Jewish community who struggles with her place in such a high control religion and decides to leave. It's loosely based on a real woman's experience.

www.netflix.com/gb/title/81019069

I was curious to know if there were any women here who are religious apostates like myself.

I really enjoyed watching the series. It was gripping and emotional. I know very little about orthodox Jewish beliefs and practices - though I had heard about women having to wear wigs. I thought it was an urban myth or something!

Watching it also stirred up my own memories and feelings linked to apostasy. It reminded me of myself, the women in my community, the men as well, my atheism and feminism that developed from those experiences.

I'm of Indian origin and was raised as a Jehovah's Witness by my mum (patriarchy squared Smile) though I was lucky as my parents were relatively broad-minded and I enjoyed a middle-class expat life so I had opportunities which ultimately helped me escape the confines of cultural and religious upbringing and cult influences. (Dad wasn't a JW.)

Another film that deals with religious apostasy with a focus on women's experience is simply titled Apostasy. It's about the Jehovah's Witnesses.

www.amazon.co.uk/Apostasy-Daniel-Kokotajlo/dp/B07FYJVKC7?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I was a bit of an emotional wreck for a few days after watching this one as it was quite close to the bone. I also watched it in a local cinema where most of the audience were also ex-JWs. There was a great Q&A with the director, and people shared their personal stories which reflected many of my own experiences and I was reduced to a sobbing mess.

Anyway I liked Unorthodox and Apostasy as both are female led and focuses on issues from a woman's point of view. It also shows the role of other women in such high control religious groups - some embrace it while others have resigned themselves to it as they have nowhere else to go - they are too old or don't have the means to do so and have invested too much in the community and faith. They provide the lifelong supporting role to the men in these communities - unacknowledged, unappreciated, undervalued.

I don't know where I'm going with this post as I'm just rambling. I'll post more later when I have some more time. I don't really know another South Asian or Middle Eastern woman in person who is a staunch atheist and a feminist. I'm aware of women out there who are feminists and campaigners. Many of those feminists might be of the lib fem type and we might disagree on a number of things (and agree on others for sure).
I know there are plenty of people like me out there, but sometimes I feel very alone and isolated.
There are many atheists where I now live, but none who were shaped by the sort of religious beliefs like mine. In fact, many had no religious upbringing whatsoever, which I kind of envy at times. Similarly for those who are feminists.

I feel there's so much baggage in being a religious apostate and it has shaped my life and will continue to influence my life in so many subtle ways - I cannot bring myself to wear a swimsuit, nevermind a bikini. When I watched Esty walk into the sea fully clothed, I could totally relate.

If you are an apostate, what's it been like for you and how has it shaped your feminism? Smile

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Original poster
NonnyMouse1337 · 27/04/2020 11:01

Oh PerfectPretender I wish I could give you a big hug!!

I left the Jehovah's Witnesses behind me a number of years ago, although my mum is still one and tries to coax me back, but my leaving was very quiet and I cut off all ties and moved on over a period of years as I relocated to a different country.

I can't imagine what it's like to lose your entire community almost overnight, but you are extremely strong and brave for standing up for yourself and not accepting the domestic violence! And the guilt and manipulation to come back into the fold.

The first few years are really hard as you have to reframe your entire existence and beliefs and figure it all out for yourself as there's no handy set of laws and rules governing you anymore and it can be liberating and scary at the same time. I went through a period of being very depressed and angry and sad and just a mix of all sorts of thoughts and emotions... Felt betrayed and lied to all my life... Felt I had lost out on opportunities and experiences that come from not being raised in a cult!

I'm so glad you have found feminist friends who have supported your move away from being a Mormon and have given you strength to break away from the abusive people in your life.

It was my feminist and atheist leanings that helped me question my religious beliefs and the cult indoctrination, even though I didn't really know the words feminism and atheism and wouldn't have thought they applied to me. Like you, I couldn't justify the massive contradictions and inherent unfairness towards women that these belief systems impose. I'm too stubborn and opinionated to feel comfortable in being told in so many ways that I am inferior to a man and my sole purpose is to support my husband and the religious community.

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MockersxxxxxxxSocialDistancing · 27/04/2020 10:54

Lots of Orthodox women wear wigs to cover their own hair in public.

Never heard of shaving it off before.

Original poster
NonnyMouse1337 · 27/04/2020 10:41

I had no idea the women shaved their heads and wore wigs. What is the reasoning behind that?

As I understand it, women's hair is deemed to be sensual and a source of temptation for men as it can inspire lust, in addition to the body.
It's why Muslim women wear hijabs.
The orthodox Jews tackle this by making all married women shave their hair and wear a wig. Confused
Happy to be corrected though if someone else knows the religious explanation.

Women who are Jehovah's witnesses also have to cover their head in certain circumstances, but it's more to do with symbolic gestures about women expressing their acceptance of the authority of men and God when doing scriptural activities that are meant to be only carried out by men.

I haven't heard of the Making Of series .. is it the Making of a Murderer? Or are there other ones?

Due to my experiences I tend to be opposed to all forms of religion as I can see how it plays out when allowed free reign without criticism or constraints, although I understand it brings comfort to many people. It's like any ideology, really.

I'd be interested in knowing how it has shaped your views on climate change.

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ScrimpshawTheSecond · 27/04/2020 10:39

Hi, Nonny.

Not much help, really, but I have a male friend who is an apostate (not sure if he uses the word, I think he calls himself an ex Muslim) Muslim, originally from Pakistan. He's also gender critical, and very supportive of women and feminism, for what it's worth!

I wonder if questioning and seeing the issues with a religious community/system of thinking is linked to or informs an inclination to not buy into things like 'gender identity' so easily. It's not easy to go against the stream of one's family, community and surroundings - I expect it requires and strengthens independence of thought.

Sorry I can't help more - it sounds like a difficult experience.

PerfectPretender · 27/04/2020 10:32

I am aware of this show, but I can't actually bring myself to watch it yet. I am ex-Mormon, and have been a member my entire life, up until a year ago.

I left after an incident of domestic violence with my ex, and at the time we were the very example of idyllic Mormon family life, so all of my community was shocked and expected me to forgive him immediately. I did not, and it made them uncomfortable, and as a result my entire support network fell away.

It turns out you can't just undo an entire lifetime of indoctrination and inculcation, and although I feel very happy with my choice, the pain I feel as a direct result of my upbringing and subsequent abusive marriage does linger.

I was raised in a cult. I can't shake that very easily, and I am still contacted by people trying to bring me back into the fold on a semi-regular basis (despite removing my name from the records of the church).

How has this informed my feminism? I became a feminist before I left the Mormons, and struggled mightily with the massive contradictions in world views that I held. I became close friends with other feminists, and eventually recognised that I couldn't live in two worlds. I had to choose; when I chose to live life on my terms, my feminist friends were there to support me. Being feminist changed my life and saved my life. It helped me get away from an abusive marriage and it's helped me recognise abusers in other areas of my life. It has given me strength and brought me into contact with many wonderful women.

Although I will always feel the effects of being raised Mormon, and probably feel echoes of being branded an 'apostate' as a result of leaving, I am very, very glad I managed to leave. Feminism made that possible.

OhHolyJesus · 27/04/2020 09:55

I finished watching Unorthodox at the weekend and I thought it was brilliant. I don't know much about the Orthodox Jews in NYC and how they live, I knew about the electricity thing and more about the men, I had no idea the women shaved their heads and wore wigs. What is the reasoning behind that?

I watched 'The Making Of' thing for the series, also on Netflix and it was fascinating, I might get the book.

I've been raised as agnostic really, with my father who is an atheist. The difference to me being that my father is actively against religion of any kind whereas I just don't believe but see how having a faith provides comfort. I did go to a Christian school though.

I'm not sure how this has impacted my feminism, it's done more for my support of battling climate change I think. It's an interesting question to discuss. I will have a think!