Women and Apostasy

I think all cults, whether religious or secular, share certain traits. They all exert rigid control, demand total submission, forbid heretical thinking and severely punish or cast out anyone who objects.
The TRAs fit the mould beautifully! Note their savage criticism of their own allies, who are forced into humiliating online apologies for transgressions such as inadvertent “misgendering” (correct sexing), their recital of mantras such as TWAW rather than engage in honest debate, their witch hunts and threats of violence (or actual violence against elderly feminists at rallies) etc.
Religious cults that do this must sadden God beyond measure - to see His love for all humanity twisted and used as a weapon against women, or to extort money and power. The leaders of such cults may have temporary power on earth, but I really wouldn’t want to be in their position when they stand before God at their death, and have to account to Him for their lives.
And as a PP said, yes, I think Christ would view them in the same way as the Pharisees.

I also see some parallels in the outrage of apostasy in the venom aimed at those who will not believe the prevailing gender ideology and the idea of policing the thoughts and beliefs of others.

Notice that some of the most vicious stuff is aimed at those who've left gender ideology behind, or who're questioning it? That's not a coincidence.

(We're kind of getting into what's a religion versus what's a cult territory here too.)

Babdoc thank you for that, as a Christian too, I’ve similarly found in exploring feminism, a neat fit with the behaviour, character and teaching of Jesus. I have been struck that following him is always a matter of choice and consent.... come to me all who are burdened... I am gentle and humble in heart... for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Any organised religion that seeks to control or coerce people is a system created by man. Any religious system that would brush child abuse etc under the carpet for the “greater good” of the organisation can not be modelled on a loving God. It strikes me that Jesus would consider this all Pharisee behaviour which he always called out in the strongest terms.

I’m also struck by the idea of apostasy not being about trying to encouraging someone to return to faith for the good of their own soul, but outrage at their refusal to be controlled, and the worry that it will destabilise the conformity of others if much of the religious community is a construct of self interest and fear. It has hallmarks of trying to leave any abusive relationship.

I also see some parallels in the outrage of apostasy in the venom aimed at those who will not believe the prevailing gender ideology and the idea of policing the thoughts and beliefs of others.

Patriarchal men have twisted religion for centuries to impose their own power structures and oppress women - please don’t let the bastards stop you having a loving relationship with God, in your own feminist way.

Strongly agree.

And god doesn't have to be personified or authoritarian. 'God' can be your personal level of spirituality, of connection with that which is more than the sum of our understanding. 'God' and the ethics of faith form the basis of your moral code, something that you take away with you when you leave your faith. You don't need to believe that only those who accept Jesus will enter heaven, for example, in order to practice "love thy neighbour as thyself", if treating people with kindness and compassion is important to you.

Many therapists or social workers would not quite grasp the significance of these issues - they assume it's the usual sort of family disagreements and difference of opinion that you get in more non-religious households, like maybe saying you no longer want to attend Sunday school or something.

Yep. I have an old friend whose mother threatened to starve herself to death if she married outside the religion. Didn't do it in the end, but it was a genuine threat that she couldn't just brush off the way a lot of people expected her to do. Enmeshed families and the threat of losing them are part of what keeps a lot of people who wish they could leave from doing so.

I've seen some who are quite comfortable saying they are Jewish as well as atheist.

Of course you can be a jewish atheist. Being jewish is a matter of matrilineal heredity.

As the atheist Johnathan Miller said: "I'm not a jew. Just jew-ish. Don;t want to go the whole hog."

I absolutely understand any woman needing to escape from extremist and misogynist sects and cults, but I feel it’s sad if they throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, and become atheists.
Normal mainstream Christianity is the antithesis of controlling or sexist.
Jesus willingly suffered torture and death to demonstrate His love for humanity. He made no demands, only asking that we love one another and love God. He rescued a woman about to be stoned to death for adultery, He made a woman (Mary of Magdala) the first witness of His resurrection. My own church has had women priests for over 50 years, and twice had women as national leader.
Patriarchal men have twisted religion for centuries to impose their own power structures and oppress women - please don’t let the bastards stop you having a loving relationship with God, in your own feminist way.

I thought Unorthodox was a riveting mini series. I could totally understand why Esty found it claustrophobic.

It is a religion that has always fascinated me. It seems a little incongruous to say this, but I was fairly well versed of the rituals of Orthodox Judaism as I went to a ?progressive RC school and I think they felt that we were so completely indoctrinated by the age of 15, that they could risk exposing us to other religions, which we studied for our GCSE.

So I was aware of the shaving of the hair, and the rituals of cleansing. Also around food, not just certain food stuffs that must be cooked separately (kitchens often contain two sets of pans etc to accommodate this) but rules regarding menstruation and food prep.

A few years ago I remember reading an article or it could have even been a documentary regarding Jewish wig makers being considered the best in the world. The item was about women who had lost their hair due to chemo, and the wigs made by this Jewish Company were amazing. The women were so emotional about being gifted these perfect wigs. I wondered if the men began to understand what emotional trauma their wives were caused by this ancient tradition.

It’s taken me about an hour to type this, so I apologise in advance if someone far more knowledgable has already posted similar, or much more accurately.

I just wanted to say thank you for posting this thread, I have nothing to add except to say how inspiring it is to hear what you’ve overcome (and be educated )

Hi, I'm FloralBunting and I glob on about my personal experience of leaving religious patriarchy all the time, but I'm actually trying to cut down on MN time at the mo, so I shan't be engaging too much with this right now. But I'd like to follow/find the discussion and for some reason that seems to work best if I post on a thread.

Have at it xx

There's a documentary on netflix called one of us about people leaving Jewish sects.
I was quite surprised how similar the stories in it are to some of unorthodox.

I don't want to spoil it for anyone else who might be drawn to watch this so I won't comment too much about the programme, but the mother in law came across as very much the matriarch, Esty's older sister too, the women weren't without power but it was only the power granted to them by the men.

So much was focused around fertility and the ability to have babies and whilst I wasn't surprised, I was surprised at young woman who was sent to help Esty. She was pretty candid but not helpful.

I really hope they do a second series, it was too short and I'm invested now!

I read a very interesting book a while ago, about a man who left a super-orthodox sect (Skverers). It touches on what the female experience is, but was a really eye-opening description of what the culture is like. It's called All who go do not return, by Shulem Deen.

Judaism places far greater weight on what you do than on what you believe. So it's relatively easy to be an atheist Jew! The ultra-Orthodox are so focused on fulfilling as many commandments as possible that they take to extremes this emphasis on what you do. They become ritualistic. Judaism also places emphasis on mindfulness, that you should fully engage with the moment and truly appreciate god's gifts. A person who leaves Orthodox Judaism may find that they bring that same mindfulness to the new things in their life. And yet, much of the ritual behaviour still brings comfort and grounding - perhaps because they are now actively choosing to engage with it, rather than having it imposed upon them.

When men decide the rules, women will always be second class, no matter how 'honoured' they are, no matter that they are freed from certain religious (ritualistic?) responsibilities. Imagine leaving that patriarchal community, discovering your own worth, and bringing that energy and focus to your feminism!

Bizarrely most religious Jewish women have wigs that are reasonably attractive! Generally you can tell they are wigs but usually at least as nice as their own hair. I don’t understand either. Although a lot of modern ones cover their hair with scarves rather than wigs as then it’s clear you are covering!

I'm not an apostate (my family are technically Christian but don't take it too seriously), but was raised in multiple countries where religion was a very strong force and have been fairly disgusted with the way the liberal left treats apostate ex-Muslim women if they're a bit too overtly feminist. There are all kinds of layers of racism and sexism going on there, imo, but the end result is a number of very brave women being thrown under the bus, and I've found myself at loggerheads with people who don't understand why those women are doing and saying the things they're doing and saying. My own feminism has been deeply influenced by growing up in what even the most ardent sexism deniers would generally be forced to admit are religious patriarchies on a state level. What tends to happen at a certain point, ime, is the creeping realization that the difference between those sorts of very overt patriarchies and the more subtle ones is one of degree rather than type.

I wonder if it would be possible to find other women who you could connect with in any online spaces that exist for apostates by sort of working around the men. I guess what I mean is, if those spaces exist and women aren't openly expressing feminist ideas in them I would wonder if that would be because of the influence that men would be exerting on those spaces. Women who feel lonely and in need of some kind of community might be willing to bite their tongues in order not to be cast out by men who've shaken off the religion but not the patriarchy that was entwined with it.

Apologies if this is a very trivial question on a serious thread, but I'm a bit fascinated.

Do the orthodox Jewish women have to make sure their wig is dowdy and unattractive, because if it was more attractive than their normal hair it would defeat the object?

BTW the shaving thing is a perfect storm of anti-Semitism, misogyny and patriarchy. It is only practiced in streams of Judaism that developed in Eastern Europe. Covering one's head is considered a sign of modesty and of humbleness for both men and women in Judaism. On top of this, a woman's hair is considered sensual and beautiful, and should therefore only be seen by her husband once she is married. But that just leads to covering, not shaving.

My understanding is that in the 16th century the Polish nobility practiced droit de seigneur, ie they could demand to sleep with any bride on her wedding night. So it became the practice among Jews in the little villages where they were vulnerable to the local squire's fancies, to shave the bride's head immediately after the ceremony in order to make her less attractive to the squire. But, to avoid humiliating her, she would also be given as realistic and beautiful a wig as possible.

Afterwards, she might let her hair grow again, and simply wear a scarf. But she rarely let her hair grow very long, because the wig would be uncomfortable over long hair. As a wig is a huge investment, she would have kept it for 'best'.

Over the generations, a practice that evolved out of desperation became established norm, even when it was no longer necessary. Men decided that a married woman with long hair was immodest - even if her husband was the only man who saw it. Other women would see it and could be influenced.

Not all Orthodox women shave their heads, and not all wear wigs (though all cover outside the home and among unrelated men).

I also send hugs to you Perfect. I can only imagine what you went through, and are indeed still going through.

Nonny the 'making of' thing should come up on the Netflix thing, maybe under trailers?
It's just the behind the scenes story of how the show came to be made.

I thought Anika Molnar played Etsy brilliantly and I hope she is recognised for her work someday. I wonder who else they casted, I really liked that it was an original cast and the Moishe character was interesting in the juxtaposition with Yanke who was a 'good boy' and did all that was asked of him by his faith.

I do not consider myself an apostate, but certain members of my extended family would, because I married a non-Jew. My Orthodox extended family were able to accept my family (parents and siblings) living an assimilated Western lifestyle, because we were brought up firmly Jewish: a strong Jewish education and a kosher, festival-observing lifestyle. If we didn't observe every festival in every detail/drove on the Sabbath/wore skimpy shorts/swam in mixed pools/went on dates, they turned a blind eye. When they came to us or we went to them we modified our practice so that they would not feel uncomfortable.

But marrying out of the faith was a step too far for them.

Ask, and I'll do my best to answer. There are more religious feminist Jewish MNers, but I don't know whether they would in any way identify with the aspect of feminism and apostasy.