Women and Apostasy

In the documentary one of us, the ultra orthodox Jewish school rub out the girls faces in school books. The cartoons of boys are 'permitted'.
That was one of the most shocking aspects for me.
The girls are erased with black marker.
Hair covering is very interesting, the wigs especially seem like a really strange, to me, way of getting around it.
As a pp said there are some Muslim women that fully cover as a political/ shock act and that increased after 9/11,
immigration from different areas has also had an effect, when i was at school only one girl wore hijab in primary, now many do including tiny girls in reception.
Why would a 4 year old child need to cover her hair?
I dress modestly most of the time, im not religious but prefer to have my chest and arms fully covered, i cover my hair sometimes also. Its how im most comfortable and im glad i get to make that choice.

Head shaving is only practiced by Satmar Hasidic Jews, as far as I know. It's a fringe practice, no pun intended, even amongst the most orthodox.

There are religious Jewish feminists who have a lot to say about the impact of modesty practices in Judaism, who are worth a look if that's an area of interest. I follow a woman on Twitter called Shoshanna Keats-Jaskoll. She's part of an organisation helping chained women in Israel (women whose husbands won't grant a religious divorce). She has spoken a lot about religious Jewish women having their images erased in the name of modesty, and how it's an increasing problem amongst the Orthodox.

blogs.timesofisrael.com/not-everyone-wants-her-face-plastered-on-a-billboard/

In day-to-day life I do not cover my hair for anything other than practical purposes, eg a sunhat, cycling helmet or to keep my hair out of my cooking. If I walk through Golders Green or get on a bus in Jerusalem with my hair uncovered, I reject utterly any suggestion that I may incite men to lustful thoughts or actions. They have the choice to look away or think about something else.

When I light Sabbath candles, or participate in certain synagogue services, I do cover my head. It may be a token gesture, as my hair remains uncovered, but in this case I am not being modest before men, but before Deity. Covering my head is a grounding action, a signal to me that I am now stepping away from the mundane and focusing on something entirely else. Sometimes I wear a hat, sometimes a scarf, but more and more often I wear a kippa, the little head-covering that is normally reserved for men. Why is it reserved for men even among the non-Orthodox, non-hair-hiders? No reason. Tradition. Some traditions are worth preserving, especially when they bring joy. But one that merely excludes women? Nope.

And yet I've spoken to Muslims who have explicitly told me that women have to cover their hair to avoid inciting men to rape. And teenage Muslim women who have worn a niqab (full face covering veil) specifically because their parents and non-Muslims find it shocking

Yes, i think that is certainly true of some middle class and educated muslim women...wearing the niqab is a confrontational act; and one which as women they feel empowered by. It is more about their own personal power in a society which finds the full face covering shocking, than about religious piety.

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband

It may well be that to some extent, for some people.....but covering the head is also a symbol of submission to God. A way of reminding oneself that God is head; not to let the ego get out of control...that personal power and glory and fulfilment comes through God...not through one's own desires.

I had a brief interlude as an evangelical christian in my early 20's......and that is certainly what it represented for me. It was not so much about the hair and sexuality, as about obedience to God, about spiritual humility.

The perverse thing for me, was that i simply wouldn't wear a head covering in church ( when the other women wore one): when it was 'expected' of women...when it became more about subservience to man-made rules and social convention rather than to one's own relationship with Christ, but only outside in the world. I actually experienced wearing the head covering as a great liberation.

I never really fitted into my church ( and i've always resisted fitting into any group), as a I tend to automatically distrust, and distance myself, from social groupings...as what tends to happen is that the individual ends up following social consensus rather than one's own heart or integrity.

Feminism is a bit like religion. It passes down principles and then you try and live your life accordingly. It's almost like, it will save you from the evil of the patriarchy and the internalised misogyny in your heart if you just devote yourself to studying the feminist classics and banish sexist influences from your life as much as you can. Or is that just me

I guess that is how it might appear - if you approach it from the outside....and think you have to adhere to certain ideas - denoted by terms such as patriarchy and misogyny - without question.

No political ideology or system, or way of thinking about life should be rigid and without question, as far as I'm concerned. Once that happens you are stuck with hundred year old traditions and behaviours and sets of responses which have little connection to contemporary reality orthe situation you mat find yourself in.

I do, however, agree that certain strands of feminist thinking can be overly fixed and insistent on past 'truths'.....for example, that all sex based differences in outcome are because of internalised misogyny or patriarchal oppression. in fact, getting a little weary of term 'patriarchy' these days......It is often used automatically, without thought, and as casually as any other religious trope.

For me feminism is simply about prioritising the female experience; a view and approach which centres women and girls, and their experience.

And yet I've spoken to Muslims who have explicitly told me that women have to cover their hair to avoid inciting men to rape. And teenage Muslim women who have worn a niqab (full face covering veil) specifically because their parents and non-Muslims find it shocking.

All religions have huge variation, schisms and disagreements, and cultural differences make an enormous difference.

I find people that have inside knowledge of one religion then errroneously extrapolate that understanding to all other religions.

Inside knowledge is not necessary for people to extrapolate their understanding onto other religions. Try growing up in a country where the main religion is different to your religion!

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband

Yeap, that is what Muslims have told me. It is to keep the sexual spark in a marriage alive, not to avoid tempting men.

I know it is uncool to defend any religious practice, but I find people that have inside knowledge of one religion then errroneously extrapolate that understanding to all other religions. Some religious communities within a major religion have unhealthy practices that are just custom and not based on religious teaching.

Yeah, that's just you. Feminism is not a religion.

No, because feminism is for all women, including those you disagree with, including those who reject it. Whereas a religion is only for its adherents and believers.

Feminism is a bit like religion. It passes down principles and then you try and live your life accordingly. It's almost like, it will save you from the evil of the patriarchy and the internalised misogyny in your heart if you just devote yourself to studying the feminist classics and banish sexist influences from your life as much as you can. Or is that just me?

*the thought-terminating cliche
*
Exactly. Like "TWAW", or "It's god's will".

Also agree with rumbaas
If you subjugate or abuse women in the name of Judaism as far as I'm concerned you are perverting the religion to your own ends.

I'm an orthodox Jewish feminist. Orthodox Judaism is sub divided into many many streams, of which only one group (that I know of) shave their heads. It's not a very widespread practice at all.

Covering the hair as I personally interpret it is about reserving your beauty for your husband. Other people have different reasons for covering their hair. I tend to wear a scarf, although I do wear a wig when I fancy too.

Theres a saying 2 Jews 3 opinions which is why you'll find lots of different reasons why people cover. There is also lots of differences of opinions between and even within communities about wearing a wig. So some people will only wear short unnatural looking wigs, others only scarves, some will deliberately wear as beautiful and natural looking a wig as possible, some wear a hat or band on top of a wig. It depends on your reason why you cover. And definitely some people cover just because of tradition without finding out the reason why.

I came across this image recently and thought I'd share here.

I agree with a PP who said cults or religions are normal in all areas of society, and from what I've read, are something human minds are drawn to.

On the Relationships board, when posters discuss toxic past relationships with their own parents, or their partner's relationship with his or her own parents, you often see mention of being held back in FOG - Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

Breaking away from a cult, even if you don't go as far as apostasy (as my parents did when they moved away from Orthodox Judaism to a more relaxed, assimilated, modern form of Judaism) must be very similar to breaking away from a family with a toxic dynamic, especially if you grew up thinking it was a normal, healthy, loving family. It must be just as challenging to escape the FOG.

Fear - how will I cope without my community? Maybe Hell is real and I'm going to end up there after all? I want to make new friends but I don't know how much what I was told about outsiders is true. I don't know whom to trust.

Obligation - they have me everything and I owe them everything. Women are supposed to be quiet and modest.

Guilt - I've made X sad. X will be ostracised because of me. I wish I didn't like bacon so much.

Hi nonny

I’m not Asian but I am an ex JW and I posted quite a bit on previous threads. Re feminism I’ve embraced it in a way my daughters who were never raised in a religion don’t get but it’s very hard to shake the programming. The biggest one I suppose is abortion. I firmly believe in a woman’s right to bodily autonomy but at the same time I’m very very uncomfortable with that. It’s very hard to find a space to talk about things like that as most people don’t understand the impact of the programming and the internal conflict it can create. I know and believe in the right thing but it doesn’t sit easy with me.

I think I am never entireky comfortable with myself as a result.

Gosh that must be so difficult, and puts your mum in such a difficult place too. What a distortion to make someone believe that God’s approval would rest on a parent shunning their child. It goes against every instinct to love and protect and sounds gaslighty to me. Although it’s hard for the person to see it that way when they’re in the midst of it.

The most important question is "Why?"

If you are not allowed to ask "Why?", or if the answer is circular, you are in a cult.

what's a religion versus what's a cult

Cults are incredibly common. They're usually seen as these odd outliers - in fact I think very many small congregations, groups and schools display cultish behaviour and patterns of behaviour. It's an exaggeration of common human behaviour, really - othering and herd mentality, confirmation bias, etc. (And cults don't have to have anything to do with a god or gods, fwiw).

And like any abusive relationship, the time when you're trying to leave and directly after you have is the most dangerous point and the point at which the most pressure will be applied.