Can someone please help me out with pronouns

Why wouldn’t you just call them what they want to be called? They’re not trying to invade the ladies changing room or anything (not that I’m sure that would really bother me either in 99% of cases).

Can we turn it around

Why is it so difficult to accept that the English language uses sex based pronouns?

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is it so difficult?

Because when I see a man with makeup and a dress on I still see a man. When I see a group of men dressed as such, I will still describe them as men.

I am not about to gaslight myself into pretending men are women.

And no, in those cases I don't know what pronouns or nouns those people use themselves, that's not how nouns or pronouns work.

I am not going to lie to children that it's possible to change sex and I am not going to pretend that girl is really a boy.

I will use whatever name a person requests me to use, that's how names work.

It's like going back to X-Factor, when I used to watch it Simon Cowell was the person people wanted to impress because he told them the truth. Nobody is actually comforted by forced lies.

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is it so difficult?

Spoken form a position of unconscious privilege eh?

What about...

People with learning difficulties
People with memory disorders
Non- neurotypical people (eg ASD)
people who don’t speak English as a first language
People who have conditions like face blindness.

Your lovely new world order relies on being able to reliably recognise a person, remember their pronouns, and then applying the correct ones. That is actually a hell of a lot of mental processing. Yeah, fuck those who can’t manage that. Not like they will have anything worth saying anyway.

”And why should I, and all women, be the ones to be polite? Let the onus of that fall equally upon the shoulders of all trans individuals and their allies.”

Exactly, @CuriousaboutSamphire. Same goes for respect - where is the ‘respect for people you disagree with’ from the trans activists who talk about ‘bashing a TERF’ or say all TERFs should die in grease fires/be raped, or who intimidate women who want to meet and talk about their own issues? They don’t want mutual respect - they just want us to shut up, and hand over womanhood to penis-havers.

Not. Fucking. Happening.

Why not? Well normally I call people by their name when I can remember it

And I call people by other tags such as pronouns to make for easy clear communication with the person I am talking to.

Having to learn a pronoun with every name increases the mental burden and could lead to less clear communication with others

Further I find it bloody rude that I am treated worse than others because of my sex , no one face to face ever thinks I am male , yet people think that that tags that identify Male from female are choices that we make not something forced upon us and used to further the oppression of women

Let me see:

For trans friends, no problem at all. I have a relationship with them and am sensitive to their preferences

For trans strangers? Well, my eyes and brain often insist on recognising their sex and I don't want to be criminalised for not being 100% on message.

For trans activists? I have no desire to be forced to use language incorrectly when doing so undermines the rights of women. Nor do I wish to be forced to lie in court, or anywhere else, come to that.

And why should I, and all women, be the ones to be polite? Let the onus of that fall equally upon the shoulders of all trans individuals and their allies. Which would at least make Twitter a nicer place to be!

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is it so difficult?

I've been told by spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

I don't think thats sound advice though. You shouldn't assume, and certainly not based on, of all things, clothing - you might accidentally out someone. Its all very complicated imo.

Just wondered, given the fact that this thread already includes pronouns and Corona.

What does science do? If men are more likely to get it and women less so do we list trans deaths in line with preferred pronouns?

Given the importance of accurate data in this matter can I say that I'll be as rude as the rudest thing if it helps find a vaccine. Sod being polite...

You see for me, treating someone as a human being exactly like I treat all other human beings means using sex indicative pronouns

I don't think any of us want to be the test case though, ideally!

Yes it would have to be able to be classed as harassment Datun , but I think there's potentially quite a low bar for that.

It appears, like much of this that is rather woolly, that court cases are the way forward.

Considering the increase in curtains being opened all over the country, perhaps AGP be the next sunlight dappled subject.

I can certainly envisage a defence of not wanting to use incorrect pronouns as it is otherwise sexually arousing to the person concerned.

I'm with Magdalen on this. I'd rather be rude than be a fucking liar. Also Barracker and her thoughts on pronouns.
I would use a preferred name but I would correctly sex a person if I was speaking about them. My speech about another cannot be compelled.

Yes it would have to be able to be classed as harassment Datun , but I think there's potentially quite a low bar for that.

I'd be more than happy to be told I'm wrong on this, by the way!

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

For many transwidows, their husbands have AGP. So how would this work out? Would the ex-wife, and the public in general, be forced to use the wrong pronouns, even though the person concerned found it arousing?

Autogynephilia needs to be brought out into the open. There's nothing respectful about forcing an unwitting public into your fetish.

In general terms, my understanding is it is absolutely not illegal to use the correct pronoun, but it can veer into illegality if it becomes part of a pattern of harassment or abuse. Perhaps someone can confirm?

for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

You know what, that's a very astute observation about many of the people that come here to insult us.

Can you believe, that some of these people have compared us to Nazis before?! It is quite sad that some people are so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with without invoking Godwin's law.

How many trans people do you know, ProdigalKittens? Rather fewer than I do, I would guess?

And your evidence for that is .....?

How do you justify your statistical comment about the correctness or otherwise of limpbizkit’s comment, which seems correct to me.

Well, as an 'androgynous looking' woman, the comments does not seem correct to me.

Most trans people of my acquaintance would regard someone of the OP’s persuasion with sadness for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

Good for them. As far as I can see, the OP is acting perfectly respectfully.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she

Well, I'm a woman wearing trousers, Doc Marts and sporting a shaved head. So, going by the above, you possibly figure that I'd like to be referred to as 'he'? Well, I wouldn't!

I'm a woman. I would greatly prefer 'she', however I do accept that it's not my call to instruct anyone else on the way to address me when I'm not present.

This is all such friggin bollocks!

In court or private life?

I general, I think.

I have to say, I asked this question at a public meeting so it wasn't a detailed legal opinion.

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

In court or private life?

How do you know they are not men?

Quite. What, in fact, is a man anyway?

Personally I would never refer to someone I know as male, with female pronouns as it would make ME feel very uncomfortable. Why would that male persons wish not to feel uncomfortable, trump my own wish not to feel uncomfortable?

Also limp's comparison was a trans man, so female.

Jimmy Saville and Michael Jackson were absolutely "bloody lovely" to some children But not all children.

So we've had the Black person card, the Women Hate Men card and the I Know A Lovely Trans Person card. Bingo card getting full here too.

Quite, Kit19

"My lovely trans friend" isn't a compelling argument** - my dad's lovely so is my DN, should they be able to access women's changing rooms/dorms/toilets because I like them and and they're lovely and know they wouldn't hurt a fly?

And segregation wrt changing rooms/dorms/toilets/prisons/sport etc is done by sex not race for reasons of fairness, safety, privacy & dignity.

This segregation is perfectly legal and was socially accepted up until males wanted a piece of it and framed their unreasonable demands as oppression and the new battle for civil rights when in reality it is a power play.

Is the bingo card filled yet?