Can someone please help me out with pronouns

Course you can Joan

Question:
Why should anyone get to dictate to another how that person must refer to them? Or be punished by law?

Is that a right extended to absolutely anyone?

Can I be called Joan of Arc?

Please and thanks.

Born in the wrong body is ridiculous. Spermatozoa meets ova. Ova is fertilised,Ova and sperm then develop into a foetus. Foetus then develops into a baby, in the womb of the female that's gestating the foetus. The baby is born either vaginally or by abdominal surgery from the Female body that has gestated the baby.
At what point did the foetus change it's body? How did the foetus change it's body?
Was there another body hiding in the womb? How did the foetus end up in the wrong body?
The foetus doesn't leave the womb until it's born so how can it change bodies in the womb?
The womb doesn't have a large choice of bodies, it's not like a pick and mix.
I really don't understand these born in the wrong body statements . They're nonsensical. You literally cannot be born in the wrong body.

I have to say that my experience suggests that not "supporting the delusion" is beneficial to the person who is having brain /body disconnect problems . Helps you sort your head out

The ambiguity is whether there is something in their brain that genuinely makes them feel this way (science is not yet conclusive on this I think) and the question is how we react to it. Certainly some of the TRAs are bonkers, but I feel like I’d be inclined to go along with somebody’s pronouns if they seemed genuine and not on a power trip/manipulative.

Is there any limit to the delusions you advocate the public go along with to make the delusional feel validated? You can see the anorexia analogy coming, I think.

If only there was a recent case that covered this...

My my. We do have short memories, don’t we?

Maybe I misunderstand as I’m not great on all the trans stuff.

But if a MTF individual believes they’re born in the wrong body, they’re clearly acknowledging they have a male body, surely?

Not to be rude, but your second statement proves that your first is correct. If you did know a bit more you'd know that we've spent the last 5 or so years under a deluge of "my penis is female" and "well if people won't accept that my penis and testicles having body is female then my counterargument is that biological sex doesn't exist, so there!"

Chinchilla you can babble on about their pronouns but the pronouns are not part of their speech. If I use pronouns about someone I'll be talking to another person. So they are my pronouns and I'll always correctly sex someone.
The only way that pronouns are an integral part of a person's speech is if they are a person that speaks about themselves in the third person.
Surely no one is so self involved that they speak about themselves in the third person......................

Given that this followed directly after a discussion about coronavirus...

Better yet, why not just call them by their preferred pronouns? Why is it so difficult?

Because in this case biological sex seems to have an impact on who's more likely to die, and we need accurate statistics for that. Now, if you'd like to add information, ie record deaths as "male, taking estrogen" or "female, taking testosterone" then I'd have no objections to that other than wondering if it would be workable for the people collecting and collating the statistics. But recording the sex inaccurately is corrupting the data, which is really not a responsible thing to suggest during a pandemic.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she

Having spent a great deal of time around goths, I know some men who wear what you'd probably think of as women's clothes who don't want to be referred to as "she". Should everyone do it anyway, because there's only one set of feelings that matter?

Which also brings us to, what are women's or men's clothes anyway? I'm currently wearing jeans and a tshirt. Men's clothes or women's clothes? Does it matter that the tshirt is red? My DH also owns red tshirts.

What if the woman wanted to be called "the slim woman". Would you be fine with that?

I can’t realistically see any situation where I wouldn’t just call her “Karen”. But we’ve all had a friend who thinks they’re gods gift to men when they’re really not all that. Fat women who squeeze into really unflattering outfits and think they’ve ‘got it’. Most people just roll their eyes and play along. I think this is because most people are fairly comfortable with their own identity.

Yet I’d never say at work “you need to speak with Karen....she’s the fat one over there”.

What if the woman wanted to be called "the slim woman". Would you be fine with that?

We aren't being asked to not mention something which is true, but to actively state an untruth.

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

Maybe I misunderstand as I’m not great on all the trans stuff.

But if a MTF individual believes they’re born in the wrong body, they’re clearly acknowledging they have a male body, surely? So there is no disagreement there.

The ambiguity is whether there is something in their brain that genuinely makes them feel this way (science is not yet conclusive on this I think) and the question is how we react to it. Certainly some of the TRAs are bonkers, but I feel like I’d be inclined to go along with somebody’s pronouns if they seemed genuine and not on a power trip/manipulative.

The brother of my friend from school has pretty bad learning difficulties and ironically thinks he’s quite intelligent and that he’s a really good DJ as people always play along. I’m not going to sit there and shoot down his sense of identity because ‘reality’. If somebody is that troubled that they genuinely think they’re in the wrong body and possibly have a mental disorder, I’m not making it all about me. I’m the lucky one!

And what’s AGP? I thought it was all about sexual fetishes. Is that really the driving force between the teens who decide they want to live as the other sex? I regularly see the son of one of our clients when I visit (pretty sure he identifies as a girl but not asked) and he’s an absolute sweetheart. Of course it’s only one example and anecdotal, but he doesn’t strike me as some dodgy pervert. Just a possibly confused kid who certainly seems much less intimidating than some of the other chavvy lads his age you see hanging around smoking weed and throwing Maltesers at people on the bus, etc.

"Prissy" is an interesting word, isn't it? Carries so many underlying assumptions that tell you so much about the person using it.

The persistent switching from males to people in these discussions is become so transparent that it rarely tricks anyone any more.

It’s one of the many devious little tricks that TRA argument is full of, isn’t it, TehBewilderness. See also conflating segregation by sex with segregation by race, which I see has already been done on here, along with the crassly predictable #bekind, aka you must always put the feelings of male people ahead of your own.

You have to ask yourself why anyone would rely on these transparently dishonest excuses for an argument, and repeatedly, continually drag them out. The only answer I can find is that they don’t have any real, honest, rational, demonstrably true arguments to work with. None at all.

It’s always the same. Waffling walls of self-involved text justifying why you can’t just be polite to a stranger.

If they are a stranger why would anyone have occasion to be talking about them to others?
Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

It is a question of conditioning obedience, when it comes right down to it. I believe it is called the thin edge of the wedge, and it is always framed as a cost free courtesy. And when the cost is counted we are told that nobody could have predicted that this is where we would end up. Except the people who were dismissed as "self involved".

I’m sorry you think so very little of yourself RabidChinchilla that you are proud of giving up your autonomy and boundaries at the drop of a male-privileged demand, but it doesn’t give you any right to expect other women to do the same.

Some of us are connected to reality and have a decent level of self esteem. It does make one see things rather differently.

Most trans people just want to live quietly.

This is statistically incorrect.
The vast majority of males who identify as women are AGP.
The persistent switching from males to people in these discussions is become so transparent that it rarely tricks anyone any more.

Well, that’s fair enough. Quid pro quo. But personally I struggle with this manner of conflating the general with the personal in individual cases. It’s what I hate about identity politics.

My brother is morbidly obese and has a raft of health issues because of it. One of the biggest problems is that he normalises it and says it’s not too bad because he doesn’t smoke, walks to work etc. It makes me not want to play along as I can see he’s killing himself.

Yet I’d never say at work “you need to speak with Karen....she’s the fat one over there”. I feel like we shouldn’t pussyfoot around it, and whilst we don’t need to be mean, we shouldn’t pretend fat people aren’t hurting themselves. But I know when to put my views aside and just be professional, despite the above statement being inarguably true and unbiased.

Or , another simple way

Either 5heir feelings get hurt or my feelings get hurt

Why should I put their feelings first, why can't they put mine first

Iill keep it short, if they insist on gender based pronouns, I will only call them by their preference when they call me they or he first and treat me like one of the boys not one of the girls

They have privileges, they give first

God forbid you ever meet a bloke called Kim!

Jesus. It’s always the same. Waffling walls of self-involved text justifying why you can’t just be polite to a stranger. They’re not asking you to do a makeover for them, just telling you what they want to be called.

But I suspect we won’t agree so no point arguing further tbh.

I will call them what they want to be called ie their name

It is a lot harder to expect me to call them something which I can tolerate if it's accepted in society as a sex based indicator but causes me great distress if it's meant to be an indicator about your innate identity.

Because me calling a Male person her or she is saying that a pronoun is telling me things about that person that is not related to their biology.

other people call me she, refer to me as her
But I utterly reject that as representing in me any concept of female and feminine that is beyond basic biology

But there is no way on earth people would call me anything but her and she no matter what cosmetic changes I could make to my appearance

Yet as a male they are used to getting what they want at the expense of females

My innate gender identify if it exists is none binary or Male, my body is an aberration , a foul thing , but it is nevertheless my body, it has helped frame who I am and how others see me, and it is healthy which is beyond wealth

If I introduced myself as Flo, I’d hate somebody to keep calling me Florence even though factually the latter is my name.