Can someone please help me out with pronouns

Surely we can withstand trans-extremist ideology and defend sex based rights without being arsey to individual Trans people?

This. It pretty much captures my comments about applying generalised identity politics to individual relationships.

I lean towards GC (recognise potential risks of self-ID) but will probably be considered the 'wrong type of GC' on here as I'm not extreme enough.

I honestly think you'll be regarded as a bit bonkers if you start harping on about this stuff to your colleagues. It's extremely unlikely that your trans workmate's lifestyle is in any way influenced by you or intended to subjugate you, so why make it all about you and instigate all this self involved and combative drama. You'll only be back on here moaning when HR pull you up on it.

Stonewall includes AGP under the transgender umbrella.

If you don't mind me asking, do you generally agree with most of Stonewall's trans ideology? Most GC feminist on here seem not to.

Using correct sex pronouns is not illegal as far as I am aware. I guess a person could try the 'harassment' angle or the..quite up in the air hate crime legislation though, given some recent ridiculous court cases that should have been thrown out ages before it even came to court.

Canadians are quite fucked on the pronoun thing though ,and I am sure a while back I read in some states (new york is coming to mind for some reason) using pronouns 'incorrectly' can net you a huge fine.

Of course the pronoun thing is another nonsensical angle. As..how would you automatically know ones pronouns as assuming is wrong and bigoted. But getting it wrong is also wrong and bigoted and hurtful. And asking is going to make the person uncomfortable which is wrong and possibly bigoted. Almost seems like its one of those situations where you (you almost always being a woman too oddly) will always be in the wrong and should expect to be berated for it. And just accept you are a bigoted monster. Really.

Indeed, but I always have that glimmer of hope though!

I know. And so you should!

The tells are always, always there. Instantly and startlingly clear.

Indeed, but I always have that glimmer of hope though!

It's always the questions, isn't it? Well, that and the whole logic thing.

Or any of the women who used to work with the lovely individual at Twitter who went to court accused of raping their soon to be ex wife. Said individual was also supposedly a diversity champion and used to go to all kinds of women in tech events.

TalktoLang, can you name any actual concrete way in which any legal right a woman holds is infringed upon by asking her to refer to a trans colleague by their preferred pronoun?

Like Maria Maclan you mean, who was forced to commit perjury by a judge, who claimed she must use female pronouns in court for the transwoman who battered her.

There are some men who're aroused by humiliation. Am I legally required to say humiliating things to them during Zoom meetings?

Indeed kittens.

So as equality and diversity officer, hedge presumably would tell women that they must use female pronouns for a man with AGP, despite him becoming aroused by it.

By dint of the fact that for some unknown reason, hedge does not think it exists, which is contrary to everyone in the real world.

BTW, hi, Tyro, don't think I've seen you in a while!

The dismissal of AGP was even more emotional. Again, interesting.

Damn, you're all so much better at this than I am.

It's like poker dick. The tells are always, always there. Instantly and startlingly clear. They're like a klaxon.

can you name any actual concrete way in which any legal right a woman holds is infringed upon by asking her to refer to a trans colleague by their preferred pronoun?

Meetings to discuss single sex spaces at work. Women are entitled, under the Equality Act, to single sex spaces. If a male wants to enter them at a workplace, it is imperative that that person is referred to as male - either with the word male or with “he” - in order to point out that he does not belong in the single sex spaces. If throughout such a discussion the male person is referred to as a woman and “she” then a clear discussion about legal entitlements are muddied.

To discuss such an issue without referring to a person’s maleness would be extremely bizarre.

Datun, I'm not answering your question because the very basis of it is nonsense.

Damn, you're all so much better at this than I am.

I almost believed it this time.

Oh, are we doing the "there's no such thing as agp" thing again?

Indeed. It's utterly embarrassing, given it's plastered across the Internet from one end to the other.

But, I think we all knew it was about to be denied. Avoiding the question is the first tactic. But I keep asking. And of course, the answer will be complete denial. Despite the three threads here running to 1000 posts each about transwidows and their experience of AGP.

Oh, are we doing the "there's no such thing as agp" thing again?

TalktoLang, can you name any actual concrete way in which any legal right a woman holds is infringed upon by asking her to refer to a trans colleague by their preferred pronoun?

HedgeWitch79

Got it. (And my sister owes me a tenner) 🤣

The problem with that, Hedge is very many transwomen are quite open about having AGP. Plus transvestism comes under the stonewall definition of a transwoman. Talk about denying a transgender identity! Tut.

As equality and diversity officer, I don't suppose your superiors will be very pleased with your rampant transphobia and outright erasure of an entire cohort of transwomen in one fell swoop.

There are countless situations in the workplace where you can't just say exactly what you want or exactly what you think. It's not "compelled speech”

Yes it is. It’s merely a case of whether you’re willing to agree with it to keep your job. It’s up to individual companies to decide on how much of their employees speech they want to control and each employee has the right to agree or disagree with it.

But compelled use of pronouns is part of a wider issue of the dismantling of women’s rights, so it’s not just a benign “be nice to the customers” policy. It’s about being compelled to speak an untruth, regardless of how that impacts a person. Whether someone is a dingbat or not is an opinion. Whether someone is male or female is not.

Stonewall includes AGP under the transgender umbrella.

It's absolute ridiculous hyperbole to describe a requirement to be polite to a colleague as "compelled speech".

We have gone from being polite to strangers to being polite to colleagues by submitting to their dominance displays.

That word you keep using, polite, does not mean what you think it means.

You seem a bit emotionally invested in this for an HR person, Hedgewitch. Not very professional, that.

Yes indeed. Very emotionally invested. Interesting.

Totes hilair to see Hedge accusing others (me 😂) of “absolute ridiculous hyperbole”. You’re not much acquainted with the concept of irony, are you, Hedge?

And still no answer as to why Hedge doesn’t think women deserve equality and non-hostile environments in Hedge’s equal and diverse world.

Datun, I'm not answering your question because the very basis of it is nonsense. AGP as a diagnosis has about as much credibility as the notion that vaccines cause autism - ie none. It's a flawed concept based on weak evidence, has been thoroughly debunked, does not appear in any modern medical journal, and is not considered to have any modern relevance to the diagnosis or treatment of gender dysphoria.

HedgeWitch79

Any chance you could answer my question about AGP.

The Jewish person analogy is just bullshit. Nothing about how or what Jewish Dave changes how I would refer to him in conversation. I wouldn’t add Dave-who-is-Jewish-which-I-think-is-nonsense because it’s unnecessary. I can’t talk about anyone without using a pronoun though. A more relevant analogy would be if Dave himself insisted that he be referred to as “Dave-who-is-right-about-religion” and insisted everyone else be referred to as “the unbelievers”.

The actual neutral choice here is to accept pronouns can reflect gender as well as sex

This is not a neutral choice and you know it