Can someone please help me out with pronouns

I'd be interested to read any legal guidance on this myself testing but I think the broad definition of hate crime can't be clearly defined currently, and no one really knows, including the police, how to apply hate crime that is 'transphobic' in motivation, particularly when it comes to pronouns and 'misgendering'.

You can report a hate crime on behalf of someone else so it doesn't even need to be the 'victim' reporting hurty feelz.

If there were clear, uncomplicated definitions and limitations it would be helpful for us all. Is it only conscious 'misgendering' that counts? Is it only genuine uncertainty around seeing someone's sex as reality that counts?

Yes crone, you raise good points.

I wonder if anyone here has any legal training and could advise on the points raised by the OP.

She was interested in the legal position regarding this, rather than just the "be kind" responses.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa

Define “womens clothes”.

I almost exclusively wear jeans, vest top and hoodie. I am a woman, biologically and otherwise.

If you saw a biological male dressed in jeans, vest top and hoodie, is he dressed in “womens clothes”?

Or am I dressed in “mens clothes”?. I do not want to be referred to as he though, as i am not a man.

If the hoodie was pink, would that make a difference?

Growing up in the 80’s make up on men was fairly normal. See boy george, marilyn, adam ant, and many other pop stars of the day. None wanted to be called “she”.

Here's a helpful video explaining all those new gender pronouns.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=IzNGkwGYE4E

Ha! limpbizkit you're not keeping up with the times. You know that trans includes all the flavours of genderspecials, right? There are quite a number of social circles and hobbies where it seems like every other person is an enby or genderqueer with they/them, zie, xir and other types of pronouns... And the gender fluids who alternate between he/she/they. (Who knows how you're meant to refer to an agender person... )

And we all know how awful it is for these trans people because they are misgendered every day.
chronicle.durhamcollege.ca/2017/03/misgendering-not-silent-killer/

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa.
Absolutely the wrong thing to do according to the above article and many others. One must never assume a person's gender identity. This is the first principle you learn either online or in person.

What scary like Coronavirus?

Um, no. Coronavirus is a disease, it might kill you.

Having false beliefs spread through society with risk of being charged with a hate crime is a different type of scary.

I agree testing. This isn't just a question of respecting people we disagree with, as Robin says. It's about being honest with children about what is and isn't possible. It's about recognising the experiences of those whose close relatives have decided they want to be viewed as the opposite sex. It's about how this notion that people are free to choose their sex impacts society as a whole.

It's scary what messages compliant adults are giving to all young people.

What scary like Coronavirus?

So robin thinks we should change the pronouns based on dress?

Or only on the dress of men?

Could robin advise what dress I would be wearing to be consider a he rather than a her? For example yesterday when all my clothes (undies excluded, males bras are few and far between ) were from a men's dept ?

Not that I mind which pronouns people use to be fair, I show my female conditioning strongly at this point and let the speaker chose what is comfortable for them rather than insist what the speaker should say

I am allowed to refer to eg The Queen as ‘her maj’ in private convo but if she was present I wouldn’t!

(Given the current coronavirus situation it might be considered a bit inflammatory to refer to anyone as bat adjacent.)

Batpersons, possibly, if we want to be kind?

I wonder what Batman thinks.

(Batmen are men, presumably?)

How often are you using he or she to this persons face? Shouldn't really be too hard to avoid offending them if you want to. If you can't then you should probably distance yourself from them rather than upset them.

In my work this would not be acceptable. In my social circle we would think you're a very rude.

Even if you disagree with the concept can you not sympathise that the person is struggling with their own life and address them as they wish.

They key point is that he/she her/him pronouns are used ABOUT a person not TO a person. We used to the hear the phrase “Who’s she? The cat’s mother?” as it is rude to say ‘she’ when the person is there - it’s just normal good manners that their name should be used in these circs. And when they’re not there I can say whatever the f* I want, because they aren’t part of the discussion- it’s none of their business.

Robin, you did not answer my question on that other thread. Why are questions so hard for you?

Oops! There is another one...

Oh, Robin is back and still trying to goad people into a quotably angry response. Better luck next time?

I do want to know where we stand legally. I hate the idea that legally I can't speak truthfully.

Anyone who works in a secondary school will now be coming across this issue frequently. It's not a theoretical question, it's about how we treat people in society.

Do we force adults to pretend a girl is "he"?

Do we force adults to pretend teenagers/children really "know" they are the opposite sex?

Do we force adults to pretend that changing sex is possible, normal and safe?

It's scary what messages compliant adults are giving to all young people.

How many trans people do you know, ProdigalKittens? Rather fewer than I do, I would guess? How do you justify your statistical comment about the correctness or otherwise of limpbizkit’s comment, which seems correct to me.

Most trans people of my acquaintance would regard someone of the OP’s persuasion with sadness for someone so hung up on prejudice that they can’t bring themselves to find a way to act respectfully towards others they disagree with.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa.

Are you suggesting that we should make assumptions about how people want to be referred to based on the way they dress? That seems a bit regressive. Most of us have moved on from the 1950s.

Most trans people are not as anal and arsey as you though. They probably just want to get on with their lives.

So they don't care about trivial stuff like what pronouns people use when referring to them? That's good to know.

*They probably just want to get in with their lives.
*
As do we limp, as do we.

But I don't think defending free speech and ensuring that I am not being coerced into compelled speech is being anal and arsey.

You may think that though and you have every right to think that and every right to say it.

If only the above were true. It's not, though.

Oh come on how many trans people do you come across everyday? They're a minority. And if you're getting so close that you're having regular conversations I'm sure they'll let you know. If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she. Vice versa. Most trans people are not as anal and arsey as you though. They probably just want to get on with their lives.

I'm very sorry I can't recall his name (am Australian, so only saw the story here, I think) but there was a high-school teacher in UK, who was reported and sanctioned for "refusing to" use pronouns demanded by a [trans-identifying student's].

The teacher defended himself against the moves by the student's family and supporters to have him sacked, by saying his Christian religious beliefs are that he shouldn't lie, that girls aren't boys, and that kindness is important, so his approach had been to compromise- By not referring to the student using grammatically correct [eg she- female sex, not claimed gender or other personality traits] pronouns that would upset the kid, but also not lying, against objective reality, his conscience and beliefs. So he used the student's name but unfortunately slipped up a few times and said "she" and "her".

Fortunately, the parents and the school took into consideration the teacher's apologies and genuine attempts to be decent and try find a way to respect both sets of personal beliefs/ethics, and ruled that he should try harder to not say she/her, and that the student would need to accept that changing the language one speaks, especially when counter-intuitive, is not easy, so appreciate he's trying and understand he's just human.

Except.. Of course that didn't happen. He was portrayed as a nasty Christian bigot and ultimately lost his job, for "refusing to use" certain pronouns. Avoiding is considered as offensive as using the correct, sexes pronouns, rather than the ones demanded. I'm not sure if any appeal happened, or how it might have gone for him.