Can someone please help me out with pronouns

Given @RobinMoiraWhite is on the thread, maybe we could get a legal opinion. Did the judge force Maria MacLachlan to commit perjury by addressing her attacker by a pronoun for that person’s chosen gender rather than their sex? What is truth in that regard?

wait wait i havent got my bingo card ready and i see the racism analogy has already been used

I dont want to share my personal spaces with male bodied people whether they're wearing a dress, trousers or a space suit! why do you think we needed female only changing rooms/facilities/sessions/services in the first place?

that's a bit like saying which black people are more likely to steal our purse in the changing rooms? Think about it. Same difference. Same discriminatory dangerous attitude

Did you think about this before you wrote it? Anyone might be a thief. I'm not sure why you bring up anything about 'black people', unless perhaps you think that black people are more likely to be dishonest, which makes you racist.

We're talking about men in women's changing rooms. You suggest that some men who want to use women's changing rooms are nice men who just want to change their clothes (but even nice men will make some women uncomfortable). But if you let the nice men in, there's no reason to exclude any men, which means the pervs also have access.

It's easier just to keep such places single sex and keep all the men out of the women's changing rooms, even if that makes a few men a bit unhappy. And if these men are as nice as you imply they are, they wouldn't want to risk making the female users of the changing rooms uncomfortable anyway, so will be happy to go elsewhere (with other members of their own sex).

I adored my Dad, if that's relevant.

I've been told by @spero (a barrister) that a trans widow would be at risk of prosecution under hate crime legislation for using correct sex pronouns for her ex husband.

That his reality is compelled by law and mine is potentially criminalised is very disturbing.

If someone you suspect is a man is wearing womens clothes and make up they probably want to be referred to as she.

But what if someone I suspect is a man is wearing men's clothes?

Most trans people just want to live quietly.

I agree with this. I think the Genderism nonsense and Self ID have been terrible for trans people.

None of that is an argument for people being compelled to use certain pronouns or for women to shut up and surrender their rights.

in many previous threads there's this absurd obsession with men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms.

So according to you, being concerned about men using women's changing rooms means that we hate all men? Have I understood you correctly? Can you explain the thought processes which brought you to this conclusion?

@HorseRadishFemish that's a bit like saying which black people are more likely to steal our purse in the changing rooms? Think about it. Same difference. Same discriminatory dangerous attitude

Whether a man wears a dress to perv on women or whether he wears jeans or a polka dot bikini, I really don't give a toss. None of the above are welcome in single sex spaces for women.

I don't hate men, I dislike some men:

Donald Trump
Boris Johnson
Robert Mugabe
Putin

To name a few.

What's pronouns got to do with this limp?

these god awful thoughtless bullying threads

Where is the bullying, though? I have't seen any bullying, but there have been some pretty offensive comments from you, such as:

"I think half you feminists have got deep rooted 'daddy' issues a probably need a heck of a lot of therapy for your hatred of men"

What evidence have you seen of 'hatred of men' here? How does the importance of recognising someone's sex become 'hatred of men'? How does not wanting children to be taught that they can change sex, and that their sex is a 'choice' become 'hatred of men'? Did you post this on the wrong thread?

... I thought your daddy issues comment was offensive but I'm not about to take you to court for it...

Excellent!

... men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms...

You are right to bring this up. How can you tell the difference between the nice ones and the creeps?

Do you have a rule of thumb for that one?

@OhHolyJesus because in many previous threads there's this absurd obsession with men wanting to transition to women for the sole purpose of perving at women in changing rooms.

Also pretty presumptuous of you to think that posters here hate men. How do you know they are not men?

Why would using a pronoun be hateful?

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

@bluebluezoo I dunno... Here's a novel idea... Why don't you just treat that person as say...a human being?

Eh? Where do you get the idea I don’t?

I was responding to someone who suggested someone’s gender is defined by what clothes they wear. That “womens” and “mens” clothes are completely separate and recognisable.

I don’t care what people wear, and happen to believe we should be able to wear what the fuck we want without being stereotyped.

I don’t give a crap about gender either. I don’t care if you’re male or female, i’ll treat you as a person not as an extension if your genitals.

Perhaps you should be nicer to people and stop assuming people aren’t decent and courteous because They don’t think women should wear skirts and men trousers, and have their gender identity assumed on that basis....

Causing offence to someone isn't a crime though is it limp?

I thought your daddy issues comment was offensive but I'm not about to take you to court for it.

Male not make

I know a worker in our local community who had a female to make transition. So born female - now identifies as make. When she was a woman she looked like a man, sounded like a man. Now he has transitioned he looks super cool with his short stubble deeper voice and mens clothes (don't be prissy about that one) he has a badge that now reads 'John' instead of 'Joanne' he's bloody lovely and seems so much happier in himself. I always think of him when these god awful thoughtless bullying threads come up.

So in that case, would you advocate for a removal of the rules about pronouns here? The vast majority of posters here use the pronouns we have been conditioned to use over a lifetime of matching them to the sex of a person. If it doesn’t really matter, why is the world of trans activists exerting so much pressure on everyone else to be sure they get it right?

@NotBadConsidering I think you're absolutely right. I doubt most trans people would make a song or dance about being called he or she. If the intent was malicious and to purposefully cause offence then yes they have every right to feel offended.

@bluebluezoo I dunno... Here's a novel idea... Why don't you just treat that person as say...a human being? As you do rightly and smugly point out.. Does it make a shots bit of difference if they're wearing mens or womens clothes? Whether they're he or she? As you rightly say - no it diesbt. You've answered you're own dilemma. If you were inserting a catheter you may well need to be prepared for whats in their pants. If not - pera a stop worrying about it and be a decent courteous human being

Most trans people just want to live quietly

So can you clarify, does misgendering not matter to those who just want to live their lives, or is it literal violence that is killing trans people?

Can you tell MNHQ what you think the rules should be on misgendering? TIA.

Have you seen this article OP?
fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/