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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Liz Truss reveals ‘shocking’ plan to remove healthcare for trans youth, slammed as an ‘extraordinary’ attack on equality - the backlash begins

159 replies

stumbledin · 23/04/2020 17:09

Predictably trans activists and their media allies have started misrepresenting what Liz Truss said.

"" ... Worryingly, only one of the three principles set out by Truss actually relates to GRA reform.

The other two – the protection of single-sex spaces for women and access to healthcare for transgender youth – are talking points often repeated by those opposed to trans rights in any form. ... "

(ie protecting women's rights is anti trans)

" ... “It would be an extraordinary move for the minister for women and equalities to support the introduction of a new form of inequality into British medical practice, by effectively treating transgender teenagers as less capable than their cisgender peers.

“We believe that transgender young people should have the same right to make important personal decisions as non-trans people.

“Furthermore, we must question why Ms Truss is making a statement about clinical pathways while answering a question on the Gender Recognition Act, which has no bearing on medical care.” ... "

(This is pink news so not surprising that they would take this tone!)

Meanwhile in the Independent:

" ... LGBT rights group Stonewall demanded talks with the minister to establish what decisions she had in mind and to ensure that young people continue to be offered appropriate support. ... "

" ... We’d welcome an opportunity to discuss this with the minister, as it’s crucial all young people who are questioning their gender identity are able to access high-quality, timely support. Every trans young person should be given the care they need, in an informed and supportive manner, so they’re able to lead a happy, healthy life.” ... "

As far as I know no women's groups or services have made any statement, eg re confirmation that single sex service provision is guaranteed under the EA.

Pink News: www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/23/liz-truss-trans-rights-gender-recognition-act-reform-healthcare-puberty-blockers-backlash/

Independent: www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/lgbt-gender-government-liz-truss-transgender-rights-consultation-a9478901.html

OP posts:
stumbledin · 24/04/2020 23:45

Sorry if this has been posted already, but the pile on continues with a highly emotive, in terms of language, petition that has now been launched on Change.

I imagine the person who came up with this was shouting as they typed:

Liz Truss Threatens the future of young transgender individuals. This needs to be stopped

Not forgetting that what she said was in her opinion (ie nothing about proposing a new law) under 18s should not take decisions that could not be reversed, and she didn't just mean about the GRA.

In fact under 18s aren't meant to have plastic surgery.

So to date all LT has done is confirm what already exists, ie the provision of single sex services under the EA. That in her opinion under 18s shouldn't be allowed to take decisions that are not reversable.

And in fact she implied that older people should be allowed to do what made them happy which linked to her saying they would be publishing the results of the GRA consultation, could be read as saying she support self ID!

But what is going on know is so much part of the tactics of the campaign by trans activists. They must always be seen to be the persecuted group whether by reactionary right wingers or reactionary terfs.

So newspaper, who continue to collude with this narrative chose to interpret what was said to be an attack on trans rights (which they probably dont care about) but then generates pages of click bait text.

And women dont have a voice, or rather aren't given a platform so that their voice can be heard.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 18:23

Safeguarding: think the unthinkable. Ask the difficult questions. Stay neutral in the case of a persuasive adult involved in the situation who is seeking your time and attention and remain focused on the experience and needs of the child.

This ^^

Lisa Muggeridge: Social work training: Ever present risk of predatory behaviour

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 16:42

It always has to be asked: for what reason do adults want these systems changed? What's their personal stake in that happening?

How realistic (and compatible with safeguarding) is it to unquestioningly assume those who speaks so often on this subject do so from pure altruism and a burning concern for the stifled freedoms of children?

Safeguarding: think the unthinkable. Ask the difficult questions. Stay neutral in the case of a persuasive adult involved in the situation who is seeking your time and attention and remain focused on the experience and needs of the child.

R0wantrees · 24/04/2020 16:14

Munroe Bergdorf and other transactivists who see nothing wrong with drag queen children and was challenged by Julia long after Desmond is Amazing (age 11) had money thrown at them while twerking in an adult gay bar

Munroe Bergdorf became a patron of Mermaids Charity recently, announced during their online fundraiser 'Digi Fest'

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3870816-New-Patron-for-Children-s-Charity

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3862287-Mermaids-DigiFest

It seems Mermaids Charity do not adhere to same Safeguarding principles & understandings as NSPCC

12 JUNE 2019

Peter Wanless (NSPCC CEO) statement:

(extract)
"The Board of Trustees and EB want to be totally clear that the reason we stopped working with Munroe has nothing to do with the fact that she is transgender.

The driving force of the decision the Board took was concern around the lack of process that our organisation used when deciding to work with Munroe. This is not Munroe's doing but is much more a failure of our systems and processes than anything Munroe has done while engaged with us, and something we have to learn from.

When appointing an ambassador we are required to consider whether the relationship supports our ability to safeguard children and be influential in safeguarding children. The board decided an ongoing relationship with Munroe was inappropriate because of her statements on the public record, which we felt would mean that she was in breach of our own risk assessments and undermine what we are here to do. These statements are specific to safeguarding and equality. (continues)

www.nspcc.org.uk/what-we-do/news-opinion/munroe-bergdorf/

Thelnebriati · 24/04/2020 16:11

Liz Truss reveals ‘shocking’ plan to remove healthcare for trans youth

Fake news.

Datun · 24/04/2020 16:06

Or is the next step to say If 11 year old children can know their own minds on gender treatment they are capable of knowing their own minds on having sexual relationships?

It's already being suggested by people like Peter Tatchell, who thinks nine-year-olds can enjoy sex with adults. Munroe Bergdorf and other transactivists who see nothing wrong with drag queen children and was challenged by Julia long after Desmond is Amazing (age 11) had money thrown at them while twerking in an adult gay bar and of course the trans person referred to above by ScapaFlo has campaigned for a great deal of their career to legally reduce the age of the participants in extreme and violent pornography.

Bergdorf added: “I think we need to be encouraging children to be themselves and do whatever they want to do.”

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/corner/transgender-activist-munroe-bergdorf-should-not-work-with-children/amp/

GCGayDad · 24/04/2020 14:33

@witchesaremysisters

A wonderful analogy - this really nails it. Not sure if you've posted it before, but it's the first time I'd seen it - so thanks.

There's a person I know who's a disabled rights activist. She's very abrasive and PC in a bad way (IMHO). Recently I saw her on Twitter agreeing with a trans activist. This really struck me as I know she'd claim that she's a feminist herself and she's always going on about people infringing others' rights.

I think she was drawing a parallel from disabled rights along the lines that, because people with disabilities suffer prejudice and oppression because their bodies don't fit the norm, then likewise if a trans person doesn't fit the physical norm of what a man (or woman) is, then it's similar and prejudice against that is equally wrong. We should therefore validate trans people just like we should validate people with disabilities.

I'd love her to read your analogy. But there's no way I'm sending it to her as I try to clear of her for my own mental health. Plus she could ruin things for me as we work in a related field.

Aesopfable · 24/04/2020 14:11

Yes. We know what some of them would like to lower the consent for.

toriap2 · 24/04/2020 14:08

It just seems odd that this is the only thing children apparently know their own minds on. I really think they are after lowering the age of consent for other things as well. I have no issue with adults living as they wish to live, and taking whatever drugs they need to feel happy in their bodies, but children cannot make those decisions. And yes, many times it is the parents who are encouraging it.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 14:07

So un-self aware. It would be funny if it wasn't so infuriating. Its like debating with Vikki Pollard.

ScapaFlo · 24/04/2020 14:03

Gosh that trans person really didn't like that Dutch man! The guff about finding it harmful and offensive - welcome to our world. Perhaps the penny has dropped. Oh wait...

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 14:02

Nooooooo - oh my god. The ones I have seen, the dads have been wither complete homophobes and out of the picture or absolutely against it. Apart from that Stereophonics (?) member.

FernPotts · 24/04/2020 13:58

It’s not always the mothers. For the youngster we know, it was absolutely the father - who paid privately for surgery for his just-18 year old, as the NHS refused it.

I am so angry with him I barely want to talk to him. At least the current lockdown makes that pretty easy.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 13:34

I don't always see the children seemingly making the decisions. I see gurning cheerleading mums (for it is usually the mums) driving the bus.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 13:31

*because children don't make good decisions for themselves and require parents and caring adults to do this.

And would add: particularly when in the grip of severe distress around body dysmorphia and any comorbid conditions which statistically are quite likely, which may include obsessional thinking and other cognitive and emotional distortions. Children in these situations are extremely vulnerable; serious consideration has to be given to with what real clarity a child can put aside their current feelings and desires to look with objectivity at the long term costs. 'Old' and ageism is something that comes up so much in this movement: twenty years from now is a different planet to the average 14 year old.

Detransitioners are also making clear the enormous social pressures and compulsions that come from the online world towards any child who has involved themselves in the communities. They are strongly encouraged to action and to believe certain things in the narrative, and not to trust adults, particularly their loved adults. This narrative actively ruptures attachments at a time when a child most needs them, and encourages them to view any other opinion but a gallop towards drastic treatment as the voice of the enemy.

How the hell can a child make a considered judgement in these circumstances?

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/04/2020 13:25

toriap you've nailed a lot of it. There are certainly those pushing this agenda in the public view who also are pushing for changes to laws around consent. Which oddly enough also always are for the benefits and freedoms of adults, while phrased as being a 'right' for the child.

Society doesn't argue that an anorexic child should be provided with medical help to get thinner because the child knows best and it's their right - the belief is that a child has a right to adult protection and care whether or not the child at the time agrees, because children don't make good decisions for themselves and require parents and caring adults to do this. Particularly in the realm of serious and permanent life changing decisions that may cause them huge amounts of life disruption and distress in twenty years time.

There is obviously, in any sane mind, a lot of policy and practice around working with a child and listening to the voice of the child and all the rest of it as good practice, alongside current practice of adults making the final decisions informed by the child's opinions but not directed by them. And policy that the child's best interests are paramount.

In this case, society is also learning a hard lesson about not letting a highly vocal political lobby's best interests get accidentally entangled with those of a child.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 13:06

@Kit19 so do they stay in a permanent twilight world of an early 20-something? Like Highlander - never ageing...

toriap2 · 24/04/2020 12:51

So are they claiming that this is the same as not allowing an 11 or 12 year old to become pregnant? What I have never understood is, the age of consent Is 16, the age of drinking is 18 so are they proposing that a child can Legally consent to treatment which will change their bodies for ever but not have sex or drink legally? Or is the next step to say If 11 year old children can know their own minds on gender treatment they are capable of knowing their own minds on having sexual relationships?

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 12:26

I guess another - less extreme -version of “trans-ableism” - would be claiming to identify as disabled without actually being so and then getting one of those parking passes and using it to deprive a genuinely disabled person of their parking space...

Very much, yes. But it would go beyond that if we were to really run with this analogy.

Very sorry to any people with disabilities, particularly limb issues. This is an analogy so it’s always crude. Don’t mean to cause offence, but it might be hurtful and if so I apologise.

...

So, I’m “transableism”, here re-named “trans-disabled” to mean persons who have no physical disability and four normally functioning limbs, but “identify as amputees” on the inside.

Imagine doctors said:
Sure, people who have this dysphoria need to be treated with amputations because we all have a something called a “limb identity.” Theirs is mismatched.

There is no scientific basis for this. No test. No objective evidence. It’s physical intervention for a state of mind.

We could see then that the early doctors might ask for some hoops to be jumped through to show commitment, some ring-fencing. Perhaps a “real-life test” of a year - where the person doesn’t use the limb in question, or goes around in a wheelchair, uses accessible toilets, tells everyone that limb is missing, changes some official documents, etc.

They’ve not asked actual disabled people about this, mind you.

Nobody ever asks them anything in this analogy.

Then medics start doing some amputations. It’s all a bit quiet and niche. Goes on for many years. Then the trans-disabled having had their operations start taking over disability rights movements and saying they’re uniquely oppressed even by people born disabled because trans-disabled people had to “prove” that they “should” have been born without a limb, unlike the privileged cis-disabled people.

Then they start saying there needs to be some kind of legal documentation so that no distinction can be made between those who voluntarily caused their disability and those who had no choice.

Then there’s a question of why medics are even “gatekeeping” these “identities” with operations. Activists decide that actually no surgery is required, self-declaration must be enough. There’s numerous think-pieces about how words can mean anything, material bodies aren’t “real” anyways and that someone who is running marathons can validly identify as wheelchair-bound internally and use the disabled toilets.

An award for visibly disabled people in business goes to someone who cycles to work, bounding up the stairs half the days, but “needs” full assistance with activities of daily living for the others as they identify as limbless on those days. Because they’re disability-fluid.

Then there’s a campaignl for children to be able to identify as disabled. A Dutch team comes up with a way to “pause” limb development by using a drug for cancer patients, which will keep that limb small. We’re told not to worry because the actual amputation won’t happen until they’re 18. If children “come out” as trans-disabled at school, their parents might not get told, and if they argue that in fact the child has four healthy limbs, Social Services might get called.

The media runs a glorified story of a child whose mother took them abroad for a limb amputation, painting this as a brave story. A charity called Lizards (as they famously lose their tails) campaigns for greater trans-disabled medical treatments for under-18s and partners with a leading international coffee chain.

When disabled people get pissed off about this they get called trans-exclusionary and told to die in a fire. The trans-disability activists start harassing anyone who questions them, sending death threats and setting off smoke bombs.

And finally, when a politician quietly might clear their throat to mention that material reality still matters... a tiny bit... and maybe children shouldn’t make irreversible decisions.... then we get told this is rolling back equality and maybe a bit like being anti-abortion.

Kit19 · 24/04/2020 11:57

yep Lordfrontpaw it grinds my gears to see the uni age mtf transwomen who essentially just grow their hair and wear make up having all my spaces thrown open to them when I would bet money that in a few years time they'll all be back to being called Dan or Simon again, working as an accountant and laughing about that crazy time when they were a womans officer at uni

witchesaremysisters · 24/04/2020 11:37

This way madness lies.
Indeed.
Great post.

Lordfrontpaw · 24/04/2020 11:37

No one seems to want to be a saggy baggy middle aged grey haired woman. Funny that.

Aesopfable · 24/04/2020 11:29

I thought a lot of transwomen were meant be trans age too - being ‘girls’ instead of fifty-something year old men, or more specifically teenage girls?

MrsSnippyPants · 24/04/2020 11:28

stumbledin you said:

"Unfortunatley we know that the public via the beatification of Mermaids have also accepted the trans narrative!
We might all hope they do but there is no evidence of that.
And as I said up thread no evidence of women's groups / women's rights activists countering the trans publicity and / or they have and papers are refusing to publish."

I disputed that and continue to do so.

And "where were you?"

Seriously? You have no idea how long I have been involved in the fight for women's rights nor what I do and have done. So get off your high horse and stop assuming other women are not working damned hard to protect their rights and their children.

stillathing · 24/04/2020 11:25

I was fascinated by the Rachel Dolezal case when it was publicised. It was before I knew about trans rights activism and I was saying "TWAW" without pausing to think about what it meant.

After I heard the whole story I could see how, psychologically, Dolezal had got herself into that situation. The abusive upbringing, and the only meaningful relationships in her life being with her black siblings.

I felt huge sympathy for her but at no point did I believe that her feelings about herself and her unfortunate life circumstances added up to make her genuinely a black person. Or to make it imperative that others colluded in the pretence that she was a black person. Or that she somehow deserved things that had been set aside for black people as a way to redress structural racism.