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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire/ sexual rights

210 replies

onlydigestivesinthetin · 20/04/2020 10:30

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 13:24

No interest in discussing other random threads on MN that are talking about different situations. I was talking about this one, and using the only information available which was the husband's own words. Sure, we could concoct a "what if he was a she and actually a mob boss threatening the world with botulism, what would you say then, huh? huh?" scenario if you want, but it's got nowt to do with the case as presented.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/04/2020 13:07

I don't think that either partner in a marriage has the right to change fundamental aspects of it, unilaterally.

Either partner has the right to change their minds about anything, but neither can also expect the spouse to simply go along with it.

Of course sex is a fundamental part of marriage, or romantic relationship, unless it is decided, with mutual consent, by both parties.

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice? Honestly? Would you be telling her that it must be her fault, that she's clearly never cared about his enjoyment which is why he's no longer interested, and that regardless she must stay in the marriage because sex isn't the be all and end all? Really?

There was a thread on MN only the other day. Op wants sex and her dh doesn't. Has never had a high sex drive but has now refused completely. She went through all of her ploys so far - nagged him, threatened him with leaving, cried, tried to force him to see a Dr. Until recently some of these worked, she reported, and he would have sex just to appease her and then stop again.

On that thread most people supported the op both in her behaviour in trying to get him to have sex and also in encouraging her to leave because she shouldn't have to stay in a sexless marriage. How can it be wrong for a woman to have to stay in a sexless marriage but not a man?

Also, can you really apply value judgements on what constitutes an unhappy marriage and therefore the grounds under which one party can choose to leave? Surely that would disadvantage women more?

FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 13:04

My comments weren't based on stereotypes about their age. None of us can base our comments on anything other than the husband's account, and imo, I think there are legitimate conclusions to draw about a man who claims he is aware he has always enjoyed sex more than his partner and thinks this is mostly her fault/problem/responsibility.

Like I say, only information is his own account, and by his own account, in the absence of further information, I don't think it's outlandish to think that he sounds sexually selfish.

It may well be that she just isn't interested in sex for any number of reasons, which is her prerogative, and it's his to decide if that is a deal breaker for him. No compulsion necessary on either score.

But that aside, if sex is such a vital component for him in his marriage, going by his own description of his behaviour, I'm concluding that it's possible for something to be really important to you and for you to be rather shit at it.

MoleSmokes · 21/04/2020 12:50

Italiangreyhound - I appreciate that my reading of the situation as described by the husband is somewhat harsh but I have tempered that throughout by noting that we are only hearing one side of the story.

This is so telling though, in context of the rest of the story:

"She has always been a feminist, and I have always supported her views concerning equality of education, opportunities, work and pay for men and women. However, she is also my sexual partner, and therefore the woman I desire, not a sex object."

He says he "supports her (feminist) views . . ." rather than that he shares them. As if feminism is a hobby of hers that he indulges.

What I read between the lines here is, "Look, I am a good man, I do not beat my wife". He knows what to avoid doing in order not to mistreat his wife but does not know what to do in order to treat her well.

He clearly hasn't "got it" (feminism) as far as his sexual relationship with his wife is concerned.

From his account, this does not seem to be something they discuss as her voice on this matter is not heard. They do discuss some things though.

For example, she appears to have explained her decision not to take HRT (anxiety about increased risk of breast cancer). However, he then goes into a flight of fancy where he "suspects" she wishes to have a "desire-free old age" based on his misunderstanding that the very existence of any female desire for sex post-menopause is reliant on medication (HRT).

"She decided not to take HRT, mainly because she was anxious about the increased risk of breast cancer. I suspect she was also quite happy to let nature take its course and enjoy a desire-free old age."

Without knowing more, it is possible to construct all sorts of wildly differing narratives to fill out the back story. However, it really is going the extra mile to find excuses for his apparent lack of concern that for over 40+ years of marriage he "never felt she enjoyed it (sex) as much as I did".

Let us not forget that this is a letter in The Guardian. The husband at least must be a dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reader to have sought advice this way. It does not seem unreasonable to suppose that the wife is too.

Several PPs have commented with suppositions about the relationship and the couple's communication with each other based on stereotypes about their age, ie. their 60's.

IMHO it is very possible that "middle class mores" around sex have at least as much relevance.

Lamahaha - thank you so much for sharing your story.
You had a very lucky escape!

Lamahaha · 21/04/2020 11:06

Just wanted to add to the above post that when I was young I was in love with that other man but I got over it, and loved my husband deeply and fully. We had a good, solid marriage.

Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:58

It's amazing how many people will reinforce the idea that women being the passive recipients of sex is the norm and perfectly understandable in any women over the age of 35.

I actually agree that it is a bit ageist to assume a woman in her 60s wouldn't know that she can have a forefilling sex life.

But I think a narrative has and is pushed that tells women that a good wife services her husband. So women then and now accept that although they can have great sex, they won't always. Women's sex drive changes alot as they go through pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding and menopause. Yet we can still feel under pressure from society and our partners to provide sex. And I think that unfortunately overrides the message that sex can be enjoyable for women too.

It's almost, you still have to give your husband sex, but try and enjoy it yourself too - rather than just lie back and think of England.

Lamahaha · 21/04/2020 10:52

I agree that there are plenty of people who appreciate this but it's the public orthodoxy – that sex is the be-all and end-all, that a normal loving relationship will always include regular sex – that both concerns me and props up the sex and porn trade.

Exactly. The wife in that letter could easily have been me. I always had a low libido but any desire I had dropped off completely the moment I had children, and never returned. I consider this a natural development, I find it so sad that many women are then encouraged to seek therapy to regain desire, or feel obliged to role-play the sexy temptress to keep the husband, or think of themselves as dried up prunes -- because our culture tells us that to be a full human being you have to have an active and enjoyable sex life.

I am fortunate, though, in that for the past 40 years or so I have been deeply involved in a culture that sees sexuality both male and female as a phase and not necessarily the be all and end all -- that there is life after sex, and it might even by better. For me it is definitely better. I practice meditation, and over the years the joy that has developed slowly over time is far deeper and more permanent than any pleasure I have ever gained from sex.

And I know men who feel the same. One of my closest friends is a man I've known most of my adult life -- I met him in India. He was a virile, good looking, very attractive man who could really have any woman he wanted. Back in the had several girlfriends, one after the other, who all wanted to marry him. I was so jealous of them!

He could have had me, as I was secretly in love with him, but he chose for us to be just close friends, and now he is perhaps the closest friend I have, who knows me best. He remained a bachelor, and eventually chose a celibate life, as he believes, as Vedantic philosophy teaches, that sexuality can by sublimated into a different, and superior, kind of experience. So now we chat long and often, about sex and Corona and everything else. He lives a quiet and sexless life in India, and has done so now for decades. He phones me regularly to chat. Last Saturday, most recently.

In the meantime I married someone else and had two children. As in the OP, my husband continued to desire me physically and it grew really tiring. As in one of the comments in the Guardian article said, it was like being coerced into playing something you'd long grown out of, like Barbies or something. The physical act which I'd once enjoyed now seemed just silly and and even gross.

I was prepared to let my husband fulfill his needs elsewhere, and I told him so, but he only ever wanted me, which made it difficult... I loved him, and I knew he'd always be true to me in his heart, but if I couldn't fulfill this desire then why not; I was confident of his love. But he wanted me.

Then he got very ill. I was his carer for years, until the work became too much for me. He went into a care home and I visited every day, talked to him, loved him, held his hand until he died.

I only wish he had found a way, like the other man mentioned above, to move on from sexual desire. This "moving on" is very much a part in some Eastern cultures, where gaining control of sexual urges is regarded as way of gaining enormous inner strength, and is admired -- while being in thrall to one's penis is regarded as a weakness.

It's all a matter of perspective. Our reverence of sexual desire and sexual fulfillment in the West, seeing it as the height of a fully lived life, is cultural. There is life after sex, and it can be very good indeed. Once you start to believe that, even if you are a man, it's a step forward. You are no longer led by your penis, and sexual desire is something you can divert into something else that leaves you less needy.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/04/2020 10:46

Nice try, but given that the man in question is complaining precisely because his wife is no longer willing to serve as the passive recipient of the sex he wants to be having it's not a terribly convincing argument.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 10:43

Its amazing how many people will bend over backwards to excuse men being selfish in bed

It's amazing how many people will reinforce the idea that women being the passive recipients of sex is the norm and perfectly understandable in any women over the age of 35.

The idea that women should be enjoy sex has been discussed in mainstream society since the 1960s, well within the lifetime of adults in their 60s. Even my mum (who was brought up very much in the lie back and think of England model) got the message and she's coming up to 80.

Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:32

There's a percentage of the population who won't even entertain the possibility that he might be doing anything bad by being perfectly happy to have sex with someone who he's always known isn't enjoying it nearly as much as he is.

This with bells on. If I man can enjoy sex with someone who is submitting rather than enjoying, doesn't say much about him - but this is accepted as a cultural norm, which I think can be attributed to the old religious dogma that only whores enjoy sex.

How can it be enjoyable sex without enthusiastic consent. Because lots of men still see women as fuck holes.

Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:27

Men arent the gatekeepers of sexual pleasure. If she wasnt orgasming perhaps she should have initiated a conversation about that pretty early on. Would you put up with 40 years of crappy sex before turning off the tap? Would it be solely your husband's fault if you did?

No one's saying its her husbands fault she went off sex are they. I thought we were talking about a mans entitlement to sex and the normalisation of man's expectancy to have his wife forfil his desires, even if she doesn't want too, or feels pressured to do so, so thsr he doesn't leave her or have affairs.

Also he says she didn't enjoy it as much as him. Doesn't really mean much. She could really, really like it, but he could really, really, really like it.

Although looking at the full picture I do get the impression she might be in a lie back and thing of England marriage. Or maybe she went of sex due to his affairs?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/04/2020 10:27

Or bed, even. There's a percentage of the population who won't even entertain the possibility that he might be doing anything bad by being perfectly happy to have sex with someone who he's always known isn't enjoying it nearly as much as he is.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/04/2020 10:25

I would indeed initiate a conversation, but a. I'm of a different generation, b. we don't really know much about the background of this couple, there are all kinds of factors that make that easier to do or less so, and c. if her husband cared about the fact that she wasn't enjoying sex he also could have addressed that issue in a more productive way than. That he chose not to indicated, again, that he didn't consider her pleasure as being a necessary component of their sex life.

It's amazing how many people will bend over backwards to excuse men being selfish in bad.

Naturalbornkiller · 21/04/2020 10:20

Not sure that's relevant. No one has to stay in a sexless or otherwise miserable marriage just to provide their spouse with an income, home comforts or a social life.

We're talking about a couple in their 60s here. Married 40 years. Marriage was a very different commitment back then and grounded in the belief that a man financially supports his wife. My mother for one doesn't have her own pension because she has been in a marriage contract thsr said her husband would provide for her in old age.

I'm not saying a man has to financially support his wife. I'm saying I'm the context of this senairo, the wife may feel under a lot of pressure to provide him with sexual gratification that she doesn't want to provide because she is dependent on him. As a woman in her 60s her option are also very limited on cresting her own income stream.

Also the man who let's assume is providing the finance in the marriage in this scenario, does want to stay in the marriage and we assume continue financially supporting his wife. I was referring to whether the wife would want to have the marriage brake up.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 10:16

Men arent the gatekeepers of sexual pleasure. If she wasnt orgasming perhaps she should have initiated a conversation about that pretty early on. Would you put up with 40 years of crappy sex before turning off the tap? Would it be solely your husband's fault if you did?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 21/04/2020 10:12

If you know for 40 years that the person you're having sex with is enjoying it less than you are, and you don't appear to have made any effort to address that imbalance, then I think you have only yourself to blame if that person eventually loses interest in having sex with you entirely. I wonder if this man's poor wife has ever had an orgasm with him.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 10:05

I'd say it doesnt say much for their ability to communicate with each other. It does take two. Or possibly she tried and he wasnt listening, although I think a big issue traditionally is that women were brought up to believe that sex was something they had to tolerate rather than something they should actively enjoy.

FloralBunting · 21/04/2020 09:57

If he's always suspected he enjoyed sex more than she did, it doesn't say much for his ability to communicate with her emotionally or sexually.

If your sexual partner isn't getting as much out of sex as you are, and your instinct is to have affairs and whinge about her eventually going off the idea altogether, I don't think she is the one who needs to examine her behaviour.

Porcupineinwaiting · 21/04/2020 09:47

What if the wife is financially dependent on him, doesnt have own pension and income. What if she has no other friends or family.

Not sure that's relevant. No one has to stay in a sexless or otherwise miserable marriage just to provide their spouse with an income, home comforts or a social life.

RumbaswithPumbaas · 21/04/2020 09:10

Fascinating thread about the importance/obligations of sex within marriages...

I just wonder with this man, is he genuinely seeking help to resolve his problem and nurture his marriage into something fulfilling for them both, or deep down does he know what he wants to do and just wants other people to excuse it?

We will never know, but I hope his wife is ok.

Gronky · 21/04/2020 07:24

What if the wife is financially dependent on him, doesn't have her own pensions or income. What if she has no other friends or family.

Is a relationship a commitment to financially provide for a partner ad infinitum? For example, if someone in the trans widow discussion had a partner who was financially dependent on them, would they be obliged to financially provide for their partner through their transition and beyond or has the nature/content of the relationship changed sufficiently that it's quite reasonable to leave their new 'girlfriend' to make their own way?

IceCreamWaffles · 21/04/2020 05:15

Obv, it runs both ways and only the other day on here I saw women saying that they'd be repulsed if their hubby porked it, but usually it's women who seem to have this deluded believe that attraction is unconditional.

IceCreamWaffles · 21/04/2020 05:12

I don't think him enjoying sex more than her is particularly rare either.

We often see the (unrealistic IMHO) opinion on here that the husband should unconditionally love his wife no matter his fat she gets, but you can be assured that in most cases the man won't be enjoying sex as much when it's with a fat women who was formerly slim.

TehBewilderness · 21/04/2020 04:35

I don't think your speculation is any more accurate or appropriate than anyone else's, Italiangreyhound.

Italiangreyhound · 21/04/2020 03:40

MoleSmokes "It really does not sound like there has been a "sexual partnership" and much more that he "desired" her as a "sex object".

That seems like a massive jump on your part to assume that.

Do you not accept his take on life that he enjoyed sex with his wife more than she enjoyed sex with him? I'm afraid I think that is pretty much a standard reality of life for a lot of couples. I'd say there were probably many biological and psychological reasons why this would be true.

I think it might be good to unpick why that is, rather than assume it's not true.

What I'd want to say to this man is that probably his situation is not that unusual. But that he doesn't need to stay in a sexless marriage.

I don't like people having affairs, but I don't blame him and I wouldn't blame a woman in a similar situation for having an affair.

"This seems more like a transaction than a partnership: support for feminist views in exchange for unenthusiastic and possibly unwilling sex." I think you are reading into it. Rather than him doing things to gain sex I think he might be pointing out that he has been supportive of his wife. So maybe he feels a bit betrayed. I think woman can often feel betrayed too. There is a human interest element to the story which this diagnosis of this man's letter seems to miss.

I feel very sorry for him and I find the nasty responses on here very cruel and I am pretty certain if the situation were reversed it would be a different story.