Male desire/ sexual rights

So, are you saying that a woman, unhappy to be in a sexless marriage, should be encouraged to leave but a man, in an unhappy sexless marriage, should be encouraged to stay?

No I'm not saying that. If you read my entire post you'll note that I comment that just because the women of the AIBU board advise somthing, it does not make it right.

All I'm saying is relationship advise in general will be different for woman and men because we are different. So saying, women would be advised different to men is a bit irrelevant really.

And relationships are complex, your questioned can not be answered because the answer would depend on the individual circumstances of each couple.

Lastly its is usually correct for a woman to be given different advice to the the same relationship question to a man, because the dynamics in a relationship are usually different for the man and the woman, and the roles within the relationship are usually different.

So, are you saying that a woman, unhappy to be in a sexless marriage, should be encouraged to leave but a man, in an unhappy sexless marriage, should be encouraged to stay?

Hi Italiangreyhound - definitely no fighting

There are so many possible readings of the limited information provided by the husband and then so many possible responses to those readings.

I have gone with a line that if he has not mentioned something relevant (eg. whether they ever discussed the disparity in sexual satisfaction) then it probably didn't happen whereas you have gone in the other direction, which in this case gives him the benefit of the doubt.

Both are legitimate readings

Female sexuality isn’t really all that complicated the female body is capable of both giving and receiving great pleasure, but we have domesticated, subjugated it and put it under the yoke.

I'm not sure I agree that this is true across the board. It's certainly true for some women, but I am not at all convinced that all women will find they have great pleasure just by freeing their sexuality somehow. And many women find it takes time to learn to enjoy sex, and it seems mainly a matter of experience, which isn't a typical experience for men.

I've had some pretty significant changes in my sex drive over the years. It was probably on the high side when I was younger though I couldn't easily make it work for me. After I had kids, while I was breastfeeding, it was almost zero, in fact the whole idea of it seemed a bit gross. It changed within 24 hours when I got my period back after my youngest started to wean - at that point I was also perimenopausal and my sex drive pretty much went through the roof. None of that was about some psychological issue or new technique or anything, it was clearly and completely hormonal. I'm now finding I can track my sex drive through my menstrual cycle as hormone levels change, its remarkably correlated to all the different hormonal changes with ovulation etc. I assume when things finally settle down, it will be somewhat stable as long as the rest of my health is fine, but stable could easily be largely non-existant.

I may be wildly off target as I have to infer a lot by saying this, but I think this is a problem re: the male gaze and the sense of female self worth.

I’m my experience some (and by no means all) women very much intertwine their own self worth with their own desirability. In short being desirable kick starts feelings of self worth.

Most women grow out of this sooner or later and if there wasn’t much else motivating them in sex then it pretty much brings that phase of their lives to a close.

Female sexuality isn’t really all that complicated the female body is capable of both giving and receiving great pleasure, but we have domesticated, subjugated it and put it under the yoke.

I wholly disagree with the man saying he doesn’t objectify his wife, because he objectifies femininity itself by placing the sensation of his own orgasm above pretty much anything else. He may prefer the convenience of his wife being the one providing those, but he by his own admission has treated three other women as his sex objects whom he discarded the moment they became inconvenient to him. He may in his own way love his wife, but I suspect he loves himself more.

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice

But the response a woman may get on an Aibu post is neither correct or potentially the same response she would get from the women on the Fwr board.

The fact a woman may or may not be told that her partner is using porn or cheating, or she should force him into sex, in my eyes shows that many women have been conditioned to believe that it's the norm for men to be a sex pest, and if he isn't there is somthing wrong that needs fixing.

Lastly its is usually correct for a woman to be given different advice to the the same relationship question to a man, because the dynamics in a relationship are usually different for the man and the woman, and the roles within the relationship are usually different.

Zero interest in a round the houses repeat ad infinitum thread. I've said my piece about my response the husband's stated problem, and I don't have anything more to add.

Off out to enjoy the sunshine. Ta Ra.

They'd be telling her that he was masturbating to porn, I've seen it many times.

Yep.

The stereotype is alive and well on MN - all men are up for sex, all the time, and if they aren't they are either having an affair, gay or addicted to porn.

Women, however, basically don't want sex and only do it because they are coerced into.it. never because they enjoy it.

I'm not sure anyone is defending it but you are taking some words in a newspaper article and then inferring certain things from it, with no evidence that what you think is true.

Maybe he suspects the truth around hrt because of her views on it, expressed earlier in the marriage? Maybe she's always said she would take it or that fears around breast cancer aren't true, until it comes to her taking it - as possible a scenario as your made up version.

Maybe he suspects she didn't enjoy sex as much as him because she never instigated it? She might have been enthusiastic once it happened but was never that bothered about it.

Again, who knows? But you are reading between the lines and coming up with your version but putting down anyone else that does the same.

He shouldn't have had affairs, I agree. Anyone who is that unhappy should leave the relationship, not cheat.

If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice?

They'd be telling her that he was masturbating to porn, I've seen it many times.

The man said in his own complaint that he believes she has never enjoyed it as much as him, and he uses language like 'suspects' when he's talking about her decision not to take HRT because of the breast cancer risk, and he thinks she was actually just looking forward to a 'desire free future'. Plus, you know, infidelity.

I think that it's pretty damned obvious that despite his claims about the rest of their relationship, he is carrying a fuckton of insecurity and hasn't displayed much ability to communicate with his partner on a number of significant levels.

Like I said, maybe they do naturally have differing sex drives and he is within his rights, as are we all, to decide what is a deal breaker for him. But from his own words here, I personally think the lack of sex/incongruence between each others desire/enjoyment/engagement, is down to a lot more than sex drive. Are we really saying that a man who can't keep it in his pants a number of times, thinks he enjoys sex more than his wife does when they have it, and suspects his wife lied to him about not wanting breast cancer when actually she doesn't want to have sex is some sort of put upon, suffering individual?

Sorry, I think he sounds like an arse. And if a woman presented her situation the same way, she would sound like an arse too, but the point is that women don't get a general pass when they behave like this. He cheated on her and he gets sympathy strokes because he says he likes sex more than she does? Please.

It's like a reverse NAMALT, even on this thread - we have to be informed that some women also really like sex and behave selfishly sometimes. Yes, they do. But it's brought up here as a counterpoint to defend the dude with the lack of insight as to why his wife might not want to rock it with the guy who cheated on her a number of times, doesn't trust her and for 40 years thinks she got less out of their sex than he did and takes no responsibility for that all. Why would anyone defend that?

TinselAngel

I'm not really sure of the point you are raising with me. I don't think you should have to stay in the marriage. I don't recall ever having said that?

"Maybe, years on, that can start to run into problems when one person thinks that now the time for that is over and the other does not. A lot of marriage problems can come out of unspoken assumptions."

Bang on Goosefoot (pun intended!)

TinselAngel "He seemed to think female desire was something that should just always be there, because that's how his desire was." So true, lots of wisdom on this thread. I think despite feeling how modern and enlightened our society is we actually have a long way to go. And I do fear we are going backwards!

I don't think that either partner in a marriage has the right to change fundamental aspects of it, unilaterally.

Ha Hooves!, I wish you'd grasped that when we spent days wrangling over the spousal exit clause.

Anyway, one of the many reasons I left my marriage was I felt that I had entered into it with the reasonable expectation of having a heterosexual sex life, but my ex was choosing to mutilate his body to make it something that would not be compatible with my sexuality.

Whilst I didn't feel I had the right to sex whenever I wanted it, I felt I had the right to leave if my husband made a choice that ruled it out altogether.

A subsequent ex would rail about how all relationships break up because women lose interest in sex, but he had no comprehension that a man could help that situation by not being a lazy bastard and by making at least some attempt to be desirable instead of farting and bollock scratching. He seemed to think female desire was something that should just always be there, because that's how his desire was.

I'm not sure what point I'm making but I love being single and not having all that hassle.

Trans widows have been criticised for feeling that we have a right to sex with our husbands.

The other thing that strikes me is that there are people who decide to marry knowing that they aren't really into sex, but that it is part of marriage. They want kids, companionship, family life, and they marry understanding that sex is normally part of all of that. If they are good communicators hopefully they have some openness about this between them, but in a lot of instances I think people just take for granted that not everyone is not the same about how they feel about sex.

Maybe, years on, that can start to run into problems when one person thinks that now the time for that is over and the other does not. A lot of marriage problems can come out of unspoken assumptions.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras

"If a woman was posting here that her husband has completely gone off sex, or is refusing to have sex would you all be giving her the same advice? Honestly? Would you be telling her that it must be her fault, that she's clearly never cared about his enjoyment which is why he's no longer interested, and that regardless she must stay in the marriage because sex isn't the be all and end all? Really?"

Spot on.

MoleSmokes I really do not want to pick a fight so you don't need to reply. I think we just have different opinions and that is 100% OK.

MoleSmokes

"This is so telling though, in context of the rest of the story:

"She has always been a feminist, and I have always supported her views concerning equality of education, opportunities, work and pay for men and women. However, she is also my sexual partner, and therefore the woman I desire, not a sex object."

He says he "supports her (feminist) views . . ." rather than that he shares them. As if feminism is a hobby of hers that he indulges.

Maybe he doesn't share her feminist views. As a man he cannot be a feminist, can he (?)

What, i think he wants is for him to be his wife's person of desire, not so much an object of desire but a person one desires, as she is his. It's not creepy or perverse for a man to desire a woman, and certainly not one he has committed to for 40 years (all be it he has had affairs, but then I am not one to count everything as rotten because someone has had an affair).

He may or may not share her feminist views, I know few men who do.

So he married her, presumably loves her and desires her still, but for her that feeling has waned and he is lamenting that. I don't think it is the shocking gotcha moment some do. I think it is sad for both of them.

Why do you think he is staying with his wife? He could clearly leave her if he wanted to. Because she is a useful sex object? I am afraid you've read a lot into it. BUT you don't need to agree with me.

I think the HRT comments are a bit sad. Sexual desire may have some connection to hormones, of course, but I think it's a red herring. Maybe he is looking for reasons.

"his apparent lack of concern that for over 40+ years of marriage he "never felt she enjoyed it (sex) as much as I did". I don't think we can conclude this, clearly if she had enjoyed it as much or even more than him, he'd not be in this position. I can't imagine he has simply accepted this situation and done nothing to change it. But even if he didn't do anything to change it, it doesn't mean he thinks she was having sex against her will. That is a stretch. IMHO.

"Let us not forget that this is a letter in The Guardian. The husband at least must be a dyed-in-the-wool Guardian reader to have sought advice this way. It does not seem unreasonable to suppose that the wife is too."

So much stretching I feel like I am in gym class!

Naturalbornkiller "No one's saying its her husbands fault she went off sex are they..."

Yes, several people have directly said or implied he is selfish in bed and that is why his wife doesn't enjoy sex.

"Also he says she didn't enjoy it as much as him. Doesn't really mean much. She could really, really like it, but he could really, really, really like it." I completely agree.

"But I think a narrative has and is pushed that tells women that a good wife services her husband." I honestly don't know many women who this would apply to and I am what you might call 'religious' and know several quite religious women. I think this is a very dated idea but Sadly I think the group who are going to be most likely to fall into this shit trap are young woke women who see it as their duty to make men (and everyone else happy). tough old broads in their 60s (I'm mid 50s) are much less likely to fall for this shit. IMHO.

FloralBunting
So, stay focussed on the op then. Do you think that people should have to stay in a marriage where they are unhappy?. Do you think people should be able to leave a marriage for any reason or for only specific reasons? If specific reasons, then which ones?

If you are saying he is wrong for wanting to leave because he doesn't want a sexless marriage then do you apply the same standard to women too?

This "moving on" is very much a part in some Eastern cultures, where gaining control of sexual urges is regarded as way of gaining enormous inner strength, and is admired -- while being in thrall to one's penis is regarded as a weakness.

This used to exist in the west as well. Married couples were not supposed to refuse sex to their spouses, but they were allowed to mutually refrain and were supposed to when fasting, and it was seen as positive for couples past the childbearing period to become celibate, maybe even enter monastic life if they didn't have other responsibilities. And the celibate life in general was considered an equal or even superior path and one that had a lot of scope for satisfaction not available in family life.

We aren't encouraged as westerners to see this way of thinking as having had much that was positive about it, although it's interesting that people seem more willing to accept that kind of idea from Eastern religions.

"... if the opposite were true if it would be the case for men being victims of female violence etc...

TehBewilderness
"I don't think your speculation is any more accurate or appropriate than anyone else's, Italiangreyhound."

In what way? Don't feel you need to engage at all but your questioning if what I have said is either accurate or appropriate and so you could back that up with why you think that.

Normally FloralBunting I agee with you 100% but on this issue I don't. "If he's always suspected he enjoyed sex more than she did, it doesn't say much for his ability to communicate with her emotionally or sexually." If we are being honest I thin k it is fairly well known and I would even say accepted that in most heterosexual relationships men are more into sex than women.

This has led to an awful lot of very serious and sad issues for a lot of women, and i do wonder very much if the opposite were true if it would be the case for men being victims of male violence etc. I personally don't think so. So a lot of women are abused and trafficked etc and that is utterly abhorrent. But a husband enjoying sex more than his wife doesn't cause me the same level of concern and doesn't make me think the husband necessarily has issues with his ability to communicate with emotionally or sexually.

Porcupineinwaiting "I think a big issue traditionally is that women were brought up to believe that sex was something they had to tolerate rather than something they should actively enjoy."

I am so interested by this. Is this something that women have been taught, that we have taught ourselves or is it simply a biological reality in the main (we all know men and women whose experiences are the opposite of the majority).

I've heard women say, I wouldn't care if I never had sex again, but I've not heard one man say it. Maybe for a man to be honest and say sex is no big deal would be culturally difficult, and maybe that is why.

TheProdigalKittensReturn "If you know for 40 years that the person you're having sex with is enjoying it less than you are, and you don't appear to have made any effort to address that imbalance..." Where is the bit where he says he didn't do anything?

"It's amazing how many people will bend over backwards to excuse men being selfish in bad." Maybe he is selfish but maybe he is not, can't we just take it at face value, sometimes, that maybe he has a point. Maybe he had tried hard to change things.

I am perfectly willing to imagine he is not doing anything special but I do think there will be couples out there where one person is doing everything to engage the other and it's not working. Then what happens?

..I'm concluding that it's possible for something to be really important to you and for you to be rather shit at it..

Bingo!

To some extent it's probably inevitable that among a lot of couples, one might like sex more than the other. It's not the kind of thing where you can assure some sort of complete parity. If I go out for ice-cream with my husband I enjoy it less than him, because he's a big fan but that's fine, because I do like ice-cream.

It does sound like they don't communicate well.

Is a relationship a commitment to financially provide for a partner ad infinitum?

In a lot of ways that is very much the model of marriage - that the couple essentially becomes one economic entity and it's not set up to be a temporary ararngement. That's the origin of the word economic, oikos, a household. It's why there are some pretty complicated rules about division of assets, including things like pensions - if I were to divorce I would be entitled to a portion, probably half, of my husbands pension when he is eligible.