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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire/ sexual rights

210 replies

onlydigestivesinthetin · 20/04/2020 10:30

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

OP posts:
Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 22/04/2020 15:07

Maybe we all view this through our own lens? For you op, sex isn't important and you aren't missing it.

For me, sex is important and no it's not just about doing it yourself. It's the closeness and intimacy of being with my husband that is part and parcel of the experience. I would miss this side of our relationship if it went away. Would I leave? No, not just because of that but if there were other issues to then this might well be the deciding factor. I've read lots of threads on here from other women who feel the same do it's not a unique feeling.

I suppose if sex isn't important to you then you wouldn't understand how other people feel. I don't think there's anything wrong with people wanting a physical side to their relationship. What is wrong is how they go about it. Life is too short to stay in an unhappy relationship so I do believe that anyone should be free to leave if they are unhappy.

onlydigestivesinthetin · 22/04/2020 14:57

I haven't been able to reply because I've had something weird going on with my computer. After typing a few lines in the Mumsnet text box things have frozen and my keyboard has been all over the place. I seem to have sorted it by disabling AdBlocker, but let's see.

Bento, thank you – yes, you have summed up the kind of fundamental feminist issue of physical sex between the sexes that I was feeling my way towards. I'm approaching 60 and learned my feminism in the 70s and 80s from women who'd experienced the sexual revolution of the late 50s and 60s. Contraception, abortion, the end of the stranglehold of the church... They were really clear that although sexual liberation had been sold as equally liberating for men and women, it seemed mainly to have liberated men to feel entitled to expect sex from any woman once the danger of pregnancy or the requirement to marry was lifted.

No one explodes or suffers if they don't get to have sex with another human being. Perhaps the fact that I discovered the wonder of masturbation long before I did my O-levels has affected my attitude but really, there is no need for anyone, male or female, to feel sexually frustrated. I'm trying to negotiate my way mindfully through my declining libido and changing body, so this is a personal issue for me too. I'm lucky that my partner doesn't have an particularly strong sex drive and seems to feel that there are other elements of our relationship that matter more. Even so, we sometimes struggle over the issue.

I'm amazed by those who think that a contract entered into when you're young and randy and in love and under the influence of oxytoxin should stand, unchanged, for the next 30 or 40 years or the whole edifice fails. You have no idea, when you're younger, how radically different your body may feel and how your attitudes may change with experience. Particularly for women, with their roller-coaster hormonal patterns. I'm not advocating that people stay together forever whatever comes up – of course not.

I don't have any joined-up thinking about this. Does it go back into evolution, where men went out and impregnated as many women as they could and women were basically there to propagate the species and then die when they were no longer fertile? I see a society that's built still around the public orthodoxy that a man needs to have his sexual needs fulfilled or he'll go to the dark side – whether that's infidelity or using prostitutes or sexual crime or violence. A bit like these incel shooters, where people say if only he'd had a girlfriend... I know that one of the best things that can happen to a young male offender is a girlfriend who'll calm him down and have a child with him. But what about the young woman, eh? Is that her role in life? To have sex and babies and stop him reoffending?

I'm stunned at the glibness of the he should leave/ she should leave responses. There is so much more to a long relationship than sex. And it's possible that many ordinary women in their sixties would be left hard-up and facing their last decades in much-reduced circumstances. Not all women of that age (well of any age, let's be honest) will have had a decent career and a work-related pension and savings. Not all men have, either. The pressure on a woman to get on and have sex she doesn't want with her husband or face a future in which she may be left struggling to heat her home, let alone have a holiday, is immense. Two can live so much cheaper than one.

Lots of really interesting thoughts and responses here. They aren't necessarily making it easier for me to work out what I'm trying to get to, unfortunately. But I posted on this board because i was looking for feminist reflection, not the standard AIBU / Guardian response.

OP posts:
Goosefoot · 22/04/2020 14:05

But, even as someone who is not a massive fan of sex, I personally, feel the situation, of a once sexual relationship becoming devoid of sex, really does change that relationship.

One could also question whether someone really loved their partner if, after 40 years of love and shared child rearing, they were willing to fundamentally change the nature if that relationship.

I think the point really is that both these things are true. Which is why there isn't a particularly simple formula for who should do what or give way or compromise.

FlyingOink · 22/04/2020 13:33

Perhaps I should say if they were poorer or he was richer. I'm paraphrasing. Not putt ing words in anyone's mouth. And I am shocked!*
You say that you're not a massive fan of sex, but as a straight woman you might be better placed to answer this, then.
Do men, in their 50s, who have been married since their early twenties, generally create such lust in women that it is likely that:
1: three women in a decade have agreed to have an affair with this man
Or
2: three women in a decade have agreed to have this man as their boyfriend without realising he is married
Or
3: this man who has lived with the same woman for (by this point) thirty years is able to conduct multiple affairs without her knowing?

I believe it is highly unlikely. A man who has been with his wife since his early twenties is likely to have met her at uni or at a first job. She might pick his clothes, she might buy them for him, and having grown together for thirty years it is not unreasonable to believe he might be quite domesticated. He has grown into manhood with her by his side, he wasn't George Clooney when he met her, he was in his early twenties, in what would be the late 70s, early 80s. Think how much the stereotypically attractive man has changed since then. Has he adopted skincare, advanced barbering, and witty banter? Do you think he's a fashion victim, a gym goer, a suave and debonair lady-killer (who pesters his wife and suspects she never enjoyed sex much?) Doesn't seem likely to me. He's an entitled married man who has had sex on tap for thirty of his forty married years, and aged sixty something he is writing to the Guardian, seemingly before having discussed it with her, so he can presumably get moral support from other men who think him cheating on his wife multiple times is somehow fair.
As a middle aged married man, if he starts paying more attention to grooming and clothes and suddenly has a new hobby or friend or work project that causes him to work late she's going to know that he's playing away. It's not like you can spend thirty or forty years married and not pick up on little cues.
So yes, I think it is unlikely that he has had three affairs, starting in his fifties, and that all three were so enthralled by him they wanted him full time.
Which is why I suggested that if those affairs were real, it's possible women were attracted by his status or wealth. If we are talking women the same age as him, perhaps divorcees, why would they want some else's husband to look after? Are you convinced by his assertion that he is attractive and that he is a feminist? Do you think it's likely he is such a catch that this has happened three times? He's had to dump women who wanted him full time, three times?

Frankly I think he's either had affairs all through the marriage or that he hasn't suddenly started having affairs in his fifties. Or perhaps that he's got regular prostitutes that he sees! Who knows -all I can say is that his letter does not seem very truthful.

Maybe I'm wrong and he's a gorgeous hunk of manliness and women can't keep their hands off him. Perhaps he is a skilful lover and women everywhere have been done a disservice by him having married young.

It seems that in a letter limited in length and possibly edited further, he still felt the need to explain he was considered attractive, when in fact his behaviour is what his wife finds unattractive.

There. Is that clear now?

Gronky · 22/04/2020 12:27

If my dh decided to leave me in my 60s because I no longer wanted to have sex, I would question the extent of his love and respect for me in the first place.

I realise this is going to seem incredibly goady and it's absolutely not meant that way but would you consent to him having sex with someone else with your knowledge? If not, why not? I don't mean this as any criticism of you or your beliefs, it's just based on the reasoning that, if your relationship is so much more than sex (an idea I'm not disputing), does that extend to exclusivity or is him not having intimate contact more important?

Anyone else who feels the same way, I'd love to hear your insight too.

Porcupineinwaiting · 22/04/2020 11:07

Yeah, the you what @TheProdigalKittensReturn why dont you just tell us what to think and we'll all think that. No thought crimes on this board.

TinselAngel · 22/04/2020 10:57

< puts bread away and toddles off >

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2020 10:51

Naturalbornkiller "If my dh decided to leave me in my 60s because I no longer wanted to have sex, I would question the extent of his love and respect for me in the first place."

That is, of course your right in your relationship (to question love).

But, even as someone who is not a massive fan of sex, I personally, feel the situation, of a once sexual relationship becoming devoid of sex, really does change that relationship.

One could also question whether someone really loved their partner if, after 40 years of love and shared child rearing, they were willing to fundamentally change the nature if that relationship.

It this change is for to a medical condition/health/disability/mental illness or some additional awful circumstance then it is, of course understandable.

But if one party just goes off sex and expects the other to accept that for the rest of their lives together then I would very much question their love of their partner.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 22/04/2020 10:45

Tinsel, you know I say this with love - don't feed the ducks, it just encourages them.

TinselAngel · 22/04/2020 10:42

I think when FWR posters express their point of view here, it's not particularly relevant to hold up what other posters generally say on other parts on Mumsnet, to somehow prove them wrong.

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2020 10:41

Dervel Generally, except in moments of extreme heroics, we all love ourselves more. IMHO.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 22/04/2020 10:16

Bentoforthehorde

I've seen it said on here previously that no one is responsible for another person's orgasm. So, why are women putting up with unsatisfactory sex? Whose responsibility is it?

Absolutely, no doubt, no one should be forced, coerced, nagged into having sex that they don't want but at the same time if you are in a relationship you cannot just decide that you don't want sex anymore and expect your partner to accept that.

If you don't want sex because it's unsatisfying, or because your partner isn't doing their fair share and you can't discuss this then that to me signifies bigger problems in the relationship.

You say that it's not easy for women to leave, that may be true. It's not easy for men to.leave either though is it as usually that means then having to.leave their children and their homes.

If men are having bad sex who would you think is responsible for that? I'm quite sure you won't say it's the partners fault, so whose fault is it if we are having bad sex?

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2020 09:01

TehBewilderness you quoted the poster.

"Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him."

Perhaps I should say if they were poorer or he was richer. I'm paraphrasing. Not putt ing words in anyone's mouth. And I am shocked!

Naturalbornkiller · 22/04/2020 08:40

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case.

Personally, I think it's very sad that if after 40 years of a let's assume loving marriage, rasing children together and sharing a life, one partner would leave the other as they enter their twilight years - dispute loving feelings - because one party no longer wants to have a sex. Especially if that is because due to biological changes they no longer derive pleasure from it.

If my dh decided to leave me in my 60s because I no longer wanted to have sex, I would question the extent of his love and respect for me in the first place.

And PP is right, in the guardian scenario leaving obvisouly isn't on the cards or he would have done it. His options seem to be force/coerce his wife or have affairs; and he's almost looking for someone to ligitamise his actions.

Bentoforthehorde · 22/04/2020 08:01

I think that if the amount of women who enjoyed their sex lives was anywhere near the amount of men who are happy with theirs you would have a point, but I think, especially if you take the whole world into account, sex for the vast majority is about a man's orgasm, not a woman's.
Of course there are women who enjoy sex. But you are kidding yourself if you think that to the world, or society, a woman's sexuallly pleasure is anywhere near as important as a man's.
If it was then a HUGE portion of these 'problems' would disappear.
Why do people have sex? Because they feel like it, because they want to, because they enjoy it? What about because its an obligation, because they are nagged, because it is their duty, because their partner has a right to it?
Have sex with me because it is my right to fuck someone so if you don't, I'll find a willing partner or one I can buy. Sexy, right?
If you think the amount of women saying or implying the same to their partners is even 10% of that then you and I must be in different universes.
In a lot of cases men are easier to please sexuallly than women, this has a lot to do with the physical and mental burdon of family life as well as just biology.
So this is not a level playing field.
Again, I think if things were different, if most women could orgasm as easily as most men, maybe things would be different.
If some of these women who take sex of the table in their relationships get nothing out of the sex themselves why should they continue having sex? What if we changed the wording. What if, man or woman, instead of saying sex, we used pleasure or orgasm.
So instead of saying let's have sex, someone would just say "I want an orgasm", or "I want to give you an orgasm" . "Pleasure me", or "I want to pleasure you".
What do you think that would look like? Do you think there would be an equal split between men and women in the demand to be sexuallly pleasured or request to sexuallly pleasure their partner? Or would the majority be men saying mememememememe?
As for leaving, this pisses me off.
For most of these it isn't about leaving. It is about justifying cheating or being a coersive arse. If it was about leaving then they would fucking leave.
The leaving in itself is biased in men's favour though. If a woman decided she's got a shit sex life and instead of fucking sucking it up 'for the kids' or whatever, decided she was going to leave her partner with the kids to jolly off and experience the single, child free life, even for a bit, she'd be a shit mother and sub standard woman.
Women are not free to be guided by their vaginas in the same way that men are Expected to be guided by their penises. This is truth, not just my opinion.

MimiLaRue · 22/04/2020 07:44

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case

Totally agree. If you go into a relationship - both in agreement there will be sex and then at some point one party changes their mind. Thats fine- they have every right to change their mind and their partner ALSO has every right to leave the relationship because the fundamental goal posts have changed. This isnt about an insignificant matter that only affects one partner - this is about a topic that affects both people in the relationship and for one, contributes to the overall quality of the relationship.

That applies to other topics too- if I married someone and neither of us wanted kids and we agreed on that and then years later he suddenly told me he wanted them and couldn't be happy without them, our relationship would probably break down. He has a right to change his mind and want kids, I have a right to not want them and leave.
You cannot suddenly change the goal posts of a relationship and expect the other partner to just go along with it no questions asked or to accuse them of being unreasonable for bringing up the fact they dont like the change.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 22/04/2020 07:25

Bentoforthehorde

Do you not think that women enjoy sex then?

Why have you written your post as though it's only men who enjoy sex and see it as part of a relationship? There are many threads on MN from women who are in relationships where sex doesn't happen and are unhappy about it. They are always told that the man is selfish and unreasonable for not seeking medical help, or if that fails, then he should at least give her pleasure even if he doesn't want sex himself. People encourage her to threaten him with leaving. No one berated her for coercing her partner into having sex or tells her that she is wrong for expecting sex in a relationship.

Unless you have both willingly entered into a celibate relationship I think that it is normal for both parties to anticipate that they will be having sex. If, for whatever reason, sex is removed from the relationship then that fundamentally changed the relationship and neither party is wrong for deciding to leave it in that case.

TehBewilderness · 22/04/2020 01:35

I think a man in his 50s able to find three women to have NSA sex with, in a way that his wife who he lives with won't find out about, and who is such a catch all three women want more, is likely just good at making things up.
Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him.

Italiangreyhound: FlyingOink quite shocked that you would assume he could only get women to sleep with him if they were poor or he was rich.

You wouldn't be so shocked, I don't think, if you you read what is written instead of putting words in people's mouths that shock you.

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2020 00:25

Both are legitimate readings sorry I think was left over from Mole's quote!

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2020 00:23

MoleSmokes

"I have gone with a line that if he has not mentioned something relevant (eg. whether they ever discussed the disparity in sexual satisfaction) then it probably didn't happen whereas you have gone in the other direction, which in this case gives him the benefit of the doubt.2

Surely my version gives them both the benefit of the doubt, not just him. In my head, he tried to make sex more fun for her, and she tried to make it more enjoyable for herself. And maybe (it would appear) both failed.

In my head, he didn't start having affairs until his wife 'lost interest' for want of better words, in sex (with him). This is not to excuse his actions or even necessarily to explain them, but it is to say that if she did not know about the affairs, or if they didn't happen until she 'lost interest', then they are not relevant as a reason for her feelings changing.

What I personally think is a reason is some level of biology, some level of cultural expectations, and some level or person feelings which she may be unable or unwilling to change.

I am writing this as a middle aged heterosexual woman. So I have mu own interest in how any of us may feel as we age.

FlyingOink quite shocked that you would assume he could only get women to sleep with him if they were poor or he was rich. Of course that does happen but it is not the default position.

Both are legitimate readings

Bentoforthehorde · 22/04/2020 00:07

It's late, and I'm tired, but this type of scenario pops up so often online and in real life with friends and family that I honestly believe most women really don't actually see the world that they are forced to live in clearly.
A man needs sex, if he doesn't get sex he will die or his penis will fall off or he will be in chronic pain.... He must cheat to save his life, or complain loudly and often until his wife starts playing him as is only natural. Service your men you awful selfish women.
Hormonal changes that have stolen your sex drives? Tough! There's a man in need here.
Birth injuries? Pah, your pain and discomfort is nothing compared to what these poor men are suffering, and oh boy are they suffering.
Touched out? Weighed down by responsibilities? Stupid selfish malfunctioning woman, depriving a man of the most basic of needs.
It's fucking disgusting that we live in a world where men's orgasms, and it is men's orgasms not people's orgasms, are so fucking important that relationships /families end because of them, or lack of them. Men don't need sex. Let's start there. No don't use it as a treat or a weapon etc and sure it can be part of a relationship but why is it so important?
What exactly is a valid reason in most peoples minds for a woman to refuse sex?
The complaining man doesn't care about his wife's sex life, only his own. If she never had an orgasm again he wouldn't care, as long as he got his. I wish men like this would fuck off.
'human rights violation when husband denied access to wife's vagina, prostitute saves man's life by renting out hers'
Poor men and their suffering.
I'm not a man hater, but I'm definitely a man's entitlement hater.

Voice0fReason · 21/04/2020 23:37

Everyone has the right to sex with a willing partner.
I think there are different ways to interpret this.
I see it as being that if a person can find a willing and consenting partner, no-one else has the right to tell them they cannot have sex. It does not mean that they have the right to have a partner provided for them. That would be the oxymoron. A partner cannot be both provided and willing.
Maybe willing is the wrong word - a person who wants to have sex with the other person.

There have been cases of adults with learning difficulties and disabilities were prevented from having relationships with each other by the people providing their care needs. That was unacceptable, they had the right to have sex just as any adult would.

Men do not have the right to have sex with any person at any time they want. Decisions to have sex must always be mutual and fully able to freely consent.

CousinKrispy · 21/04/2020 22:37

The issue isn't that this man should be given permission to leave an unfulfilling relationship. Everyone already has that right and of course he can leave and I doubt that anyone in the comments was insisting he wasn't allowed to leave.

The issue is that he hasn't left it, despite decades of a sex life that was apparently subpar from the start and has now fizzled out. That's his choice; why is he still making that choice?

I think what the OP was raising was the question of whether in our culture a significant chunk of men are socialized to think of sex as something they are entitled to have from their partner, no matter what life changes both of them have been through. This may be part of why he hasn't yet made the choice to leave, because he feels deep down a sense that his partner owes him an active sex life.

I think this is a very interesting question to raise about male and female socialization.

TehBewilderness · 21/04/2020 21:50

You make an important point, Flying Oink.
He may very well be an office lothario as well as one at home.
"It would be irresponsible NOT to speculate."

FlyingOink · 21/04/2020 19:58

I think it's interesting he felt the need to mention the other women wanted to share him.
He feels the need to emphasise,in an anonymous letter, that he is attractive enough that he had to dump three women he was having affairs with because they became too attached to him.
I think a man in his 50s able to find three women to have NSA sex with, in a way that his wife who he lives with won't find out about, and who is such a catch all three women want more, is likely just good at making things up.
Either that or he's very wealthy and picked three women worse off than him.
But even if he's telling the truth, his insistence on mentioning that in such a short letter suggests that he's pre-empting criticism about having become physically unattractive.
Interestingly his behaviour has become deeply unattractive to his wife, and she is irritated by his advances. "Some women liked it though!" he appears to protest.
There's too much detail missing, not least her side of the story, but from what he writes, he seems like an arse.

I also think that it's reasonable for him to leave.