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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male desire/ sexual rights

210 replies

onlydigestivesinthetin · 20/04/2020 10:30

I stumbled across this piece in the Guardian over the weekend: older man bemoaning the fact that his wife no longer wants sex with him, with the implication that this either 'forces' him to have affairs or he will have to leave her in order to have what he sees as his right to a sex life.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/18/my-life-in-sex-my-wife-wants-a-desire-free-old-age-but-i-still-see-her-as-my-sexual-partner

The article and most of the responses reminded me of the judge who declared that it was a husband's fundamental right to have sex with his wife:

www.theguardian.com/law/2019/apr/03/english-judge-says-man-having-sex-with-wife-is-fundamental-human-right

And then of various articles about men rating brothels and the women they abuse in them:

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/disturbing-sex-work-website-men-20574557

And it made me think of all the autogynophiles abandoning their wives and children to pursue their sexual kink who may, oddly enough, never have sex with anyone else again in their pursuit to make themselves into the object of their desire.

I know this is just feminism 101 – that we live in a society based around testosterone, where the male sexual urge is regarded as sacrosanct and women are still expected to service their male partners' sexual needs. And yes, I fully expect a few women to respond this that they love sex and are always ready for it, any time, any where. But what about the millions of us who can't say that?

I've looked through the Guardian seeking a response that doesn't basically affirm a man's right to have sex and can see very few. There are a couple of clearly feminist responses early on, but after that everyone politely acknowledges that a man has his urges and he needs to express them with another human being. Is the Guardian weeding out anyone who says that sex isn't a human right or is this an indication that the majority of people accept the fundamental right of men to have sex somehow, some way, with anyone they can?

What would you, women of Mumsnet feminism chat, say to the man in the Guardian?

OP posts:
GenderWang · 23/04/2020 17:43

FlyingOink - is that a male fantasy, the notion of "arrangements" that the wife knows about but that is never discussed? Sounds like a lot of resentment and tension in real life, and I've never knowingly seen it happen.

I have no idea how often this happens, I doubt very often, but I can cite examples from within my wider family and family friends of my parent's generation (born between WW1 and WW2) where there was definitely no resentment or tension as a result.

One example would be of one of my aunts and her husband, who were childhood sweethearts, married young and remained very happily married until her death in her 60's. They had one son but her husband also had a daughter with her best friend, who was married and also had several other children with her own husband.

(Note: there was eventually huge "resentment and tension as a result" in the best friend's marriage but that was due to a husband's reaction rather than a wife's.)

The circumstances were unusual. My aunt had a very debilitating, painful chronic illness that started in her 30's and eventually killed her. Who knows what their sex life, if any, would have been like if she had been well. As it was, she was much too ill most of the time to be at all interested.

Her husband worked full-time in heavy industry and shared the housekeeping and cooking with their son. The son was always in full-time employment, was as much of a "homemaker" as his parents, was happy to stay living in the family home but had a very full life including a long-standing relationship with a woman who did not want children and wanted to live alone.

My aunt and her husband were a lively, happy, sociable couple and there was a close-knit, supportive family unit with my male cousin.

I do not know how my aunt became aware of her husband's affair or if they ever discussed it. She and her best friend tacitly acknowledged it and my aunt was delighted when her best friend told her "in passing" that she was pregnant, my aunt knitted baby clothes for her, etc. and it was understood between them who the father was. (Those were the days before The Pill, when an unplanned pregnancy was a much likelier consequence of an affair.)

The affair lasted many years and only ended when the best friend's husband found out and threatened to kill her. He never suspected the parentage of her youngest child.

My understanding is that the best friend's husband was never a kind or pleasant man and that my aunt was very happy with an "arrangement" that brought happiness to both her husband and her best friend.

My aunt lived on the other side of the country and I know most of this because she and my mother spent at least an hour on the phone to each other every Sunday.

The affair and the parentage of my cousin's half-sister became something of an "open secret" in later years. The best friend died before my aunt and her husband. After my aunt died, her husband never recovered from the loss. Despite being fit and healthy he died less than two years later. My cousin said that the GP told him that he had essentially "died of a broken heart".

I didn't know if my cousin was aware of the existence of his half-sister until his father's funeral, when he introduced me to his half-sister. They explained that they had each known about the other since their late teens, had sought each other out in their twenties and had been friends since then. It was a particularly important friendship for my cousin because he was an only-child.

I think my cousin was about 8 years older than his half-sister. It is a small town and their mothers were worried about the possibility of inadvertent incest so they each told the children when they were old enough to understand.

As far as I am aware, their blood-relationship is still a secret except on a "need to know" basis. Some but not all of the half-sister's siblings were aware of it. Another cousin is aware of it and she finds the whole thing repulsive and reprehensible.

My cousin died childless in his 50's, I met his half-sister again at his funeral and some of these details I learned from her.

Those circumstances are unusual but the pre-existing friendship between "the wife and the mistress" and the fact that there was never any intention to end either marriage seem at least as significant as my aunt's illness and her husband's actions in seeking sex elsewhere. His "male desire" is just part of a bigger story.

The other examples I could cite are all rather different.

Some involve friends of my mother who remained in unhappy marriages to mostly rather horrible men "for the sake of the children", wives who were more than happy for their husbands to be getting their jollies elsewhere rather than using them for sex and raping them.

Others relate more to the other quote below . . .

Is it like the mythical Frenchman and his mistress? Or is it just a fantasy that a man can have a woman on the side without any difficult conversations at any point?

Is it a myth? It is interesting that this is always framed in this way. Why not, "Is it like the mythical Frenchwoman and her lover? Or is it just a fantasy that a woman can have a man on the side without any difficult conversations at any point?"

The other examples I could give are relationships where both parties have had or are having affairs, sometimes very long-standing, and there is a mutual wish to avoid those "difficult conversations".

They would include "live examples" of those sorts of relationships happening right now.

Personally, I would find that sort of relationship very uncomfortable. Being "the other woman" is a doddle by comparison, although it is something I have generally tried to avoid.

Gronky · 23/04/2020 17:10

FlyingOink, MimiLaRue, my comment about a sexless relationship related to CousinKrispy's analogy, not the initial content. I agree that the pressures on couples to make their relationships sexual is another topic, it was a passing comment.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:55

Oh and the difference between how a female virgin versus a male virgin. One is a virtue, the other is a failing.

Unless the female virgin is old in which case she's perceived as useless by patriarchy anyway.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:53

To be fair there are societal expectations for straight couples to have sex and have children.
Where it might be considered a patriarchal expectation might be the way an asexual man is perceived compared to an asexual woman.
Maybe it would be harder for a man to discuss with his friends that he's not interested in sex? I don't know.

But again it's a different issue.

MimiLaRue · 23/04/2020 15:50

I wanted to add that I also really like this analogy but would also like to add that I don't see a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy) as somehow 'wrong' and would attribute that to societal (mostly patriarchal) pressures

If neither partner wants sex then its a complete non-issue. Everyone needs to have the relationship thats comfortable for them and in this scenario they are 100% compatible and its noone elses business what they do or dont do in bed.

But thats not what is being discussed. The issue being discussed is when one partner wants sex and the other doesnt. Thats an incompatibility issue.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:39

a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy)
Yeah but that's not what's being discussed. Obviously if both partners are happy it's no business of anyone's how often they bump uglies.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:37

Do women feel as entitled to sex as men do? Are women whose partners refuse sex mostly enraged, or mostly insecure?

Is the guy in the article more enraged or more insecure?

I guess that because the letter is edited, we may never know, and we might be reading his (edited) words through our own filter.

Even his indignation might just be fear and insecurity. I personally think he's an arse, and I know that some of what I think about him is sheer conjecture. But also any reading of him as a sympathetic character also relies on some filling in of blanks.

Gronky · 23/04/2020 15:34

You tend the garden in the hopes the plants will flourish, but a garden is a complex system in which many surprising things can go wrong....or maybe that's just my incompetent gardening!

I wanted to add that I also really like this analogy but would also like to add that I don't see a sexless relationship (provided both partners are happy) as somehow 'wrong' and would attribute that to societal (mostly patriarchal) pressures.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 15:32

Italiangreyhound
I think I should have emphasised the tense more.
I was making a distinction between not fussed before and not fussed afterwards.

If you've just had great sex but you're thinking you would rather have spent the time doing something else then either the sex wasn't that great or the something else is amazing.
OTOH I get that an indifference and unlikeliness to instigate is a different thing entirely, and many relationships see a great deal of this. Generally in the scenario I'm thinking of, afterwards both parties are pleased that they just had sex, though. Not that they'd rather have watched telly.

It's something that that human has free choice about every single time
Yes, but the man in the article just wants it to not be a no every single time, so he pays lip service to the idea.

Reminds me of this www.huffpost.com/entry/man-wife-spreadsheet-sex_n_5605670

Gronky · 23/04/2020 15:31

I'd add to it that physical and emotional intimacy with another human being, whether you are married to them or not, isn't an object that's handed to you for your consumption.

It was a very simple analogy and I'm very glad that gin isn't as complicated as physical intimacy. I should say that I'm very much a happy spinster.

I ask the question because I've encountered the attitude in a very small number of people (interestingly, both men and women) in relationships that turned sexless who were bemoaning their former partner for selfishly finding someone else to start a relationship that included sexual relations. Their attitude appeared to be that they had a right to this relationship (in the sense that it was entirely their former partner's fault for ending things with them). I didn't explore the issue because I still had to work with them and I'm gifted at unwittingly annoying people. Smile However, I find it a fascinating discussion because I see both desires as equally valid but would like to understand the rationale behind this one.

Goosefoot · 23/04/2020 15:17

I think if we're talking about a general indifference resulting in that person being less likely to instigate, even though they might enjoy it, then I understand.

If you mean someone can have satisfying sex and then think it wasn't worth the effort afterwards then I have to admit that's a new one for me.

I've met people who liked sex well enough, but were happy when their libido lessened somewhat or the were at a stage where they felt they could leave sex behind. The idea being generally that they felt it was kind of a distraction, they wanted to spend more time thinking about and doing other things, and exploring a kind of intimacy that was not so physiologically determined. And sometimes they feel like their is a kind of clarity that comes with being less tied to whatever their physical sensations happen to be.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 14:52

"... a garden is a complex system in which many surprising things can go wrong....or maybe that's just my incompetent gardening! "

CousinKrispy that's a brilliant analogy.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 14:48

"If you mean someone can have satisfying sex and then think it wasn't worth the effort afterwards then I have to admit that's a new one for me."

I guess I am saying that knowing what will happen ( an orgasm) one might still feel they cannot be bothered, yes.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 14:46

FlyingOink "I think if we're talking about a general indifference resulting in that person being less likely to instigate, even though they might enjoy it, then I understand." Yes I kind of am. That it's for some not worth instigating. But the letter implies something more.

MimiLaRue · 23/04/2020 13:05

I've been thinking and I think it's inherently selfish to think one is entitled to sex

This is an interesting point. I would 100% agree that noone is automatically entitled to sex. I'm thinking of those awful school shootings in the US which are often perpetrated by some vile, arrogant teenager full of rage that none of the girls in his class will sleep with him etc So no, noone is "entitled to sex".

That said, if you enter into a mutually respectful relationship which is consensual and you both agree that sex is part of a loving relationship then I dont think its unreasonable to be upset if your partner suddenly declares one day that they've completely gone off it and are never having it ever again. Now, I highly doubt anyone decent would suddenly leave that relationship without discussing this with their partner and finding out why and seeing if they can support them in whatever struggles they might be having in regard to sex.

Going off sex just after childbirth for example, is completely understandable and in any relationship there will be times of less sex and times of more sex and thats completely to be expected. However, there is a huge difference between your partner going off sex for a while and your partner telling you, thats it- i am not ever having sex ever again.
They have the right to make that decision of course but it does then mean that the other partner has to deal with never having sex ever again. That will inevitably cause issues if thats not what the partner wants.

I love my H but if he told me he was never having sex ever again I would be devastated. Even if I tried to deal with that and stay with him, I cannot guarantee that I wouldnt start to be attracted to men outside of the marriage. Which puts me in a dilemma. If I tell my partner I dont want to live the rest of my life without sex then I am apparently wrong (or pressurising them according to some in this thread) yet if I have an affair thats wrong too. So, what should happen in scenarios like this? the partner who still wants sex should just shut up and deal with it?- is that fair either? It doesnt sound very fair to me.

BTW I havent read the full article quoted above- that man could be a complete arsehole for all I know, I'm merely referring to the general topic of- are people entitled to sex etc

CousinKrispy · 23/04/2020 13:01

I can't speak for the other poster, Gronky, but I think that's an interesting analogy.

I'd add to it that physical and emotional intimacy with another human being, whether you are married to them or not, isn't an object that's handed to you for your consumption.

It's something that that human has free choice about every single time, and my particular lens on this is that getting that intimacy isn't something you are entitled to because you want it, because you are offering it to them, or because you feel you need it. It's something that, in a healthy relationship, you both cultivate the love and trust and communication necessary to encourage it to happen. You tend the garden in the hopes the plants will flourish, but a garden is a complex system in which many surprising things can go wrong....or maybe that's just my incompetent gardening!

Gronky · 23/04/2020 12:37

I've been thinking and I think it's inherently selfish to think one is entitled to sex.

Could you please clarify whether you mean it's selfish to feel entitled to have a partner for sex or to feel entitled to have sex with a partner? I realise this sounds a bit cryptic so the former would be like feeling you deserve to be given a glass of gin, the latter is feeling you deserve to be able to drink the glass of gin someone just offered to you.

Whatisthisfuckery · 23/04/2020 12:01

I think in this case we can make a pretty solid assumption that the sex wasn’t great for her. Judging by the amount of women who fake it and the amount of blokes who are convinced of their own sexual prowess because they can’t be arsed to see past their own gratification, we could reasonably arrive at one of two possibilities.

1, that she wasn’t all that enthusiastic about the sex, which is what lead him to the unexplored, (by his own admission) belief that she didn’t enjoy it as much as he did.

2, she gave the impression of enjoying it but he intuited that she wasn’t as into it as him.

Given the tone and focus of the letter, which is basically one long moan that she wouldn’t take HRT, which in his opinion would have made her more willing to satisfy his sexual needs, and his need to justify himself for having affairs by saying he supported her feminism, we can probably rule out option 2, as that would have required him to stop thinking about himself and think about her feelings. If you read between the lines it’s all rather obvious.

FlyingOink · 23/04/2020 11:19

You can have an orgasm and still think It's not worth the effort.

I think if we're talking about a general indifference resulting in that person being less likely to instigate, even though they might enjoy it, then I understand.

If you mean someone can have satisfying sex and then think it wasn't worth the effort afterwards then I have to admit that's a new one for me.

MinesaBottle · 23/04/2020 10:48

I don’t know if it’s just about sex is it? I haven’t rtft yet but I feel like this (men’s ‘right’ to sex) is a manifestation of the expectation that women should always subsume their own needs and wants to other people - their partner, their children, their parents, their partner’s parents...

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 10:12

Just for the record I don't think anyone is ever entitled to sex.

I did wonder if this letter was a collage of letters, not a real person. The bit I most take issue with I the letter is the comments about HRT. I think they are very cruel and that would be a real issue for me.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 10:09

Also we don't know it was always perceived as of no interest to her.

"It's a mismatch, which is an awful thing, and the reason why this letter seems so weird is that one side of the relationship has put up with the mismatch and the other is now unable or unwilling to."

I do think that is easy to understand.

Personally.

You can put up maybe eith something you don't much like making the odd appearance in a situation but you can't live forever without something you really like. For example someone trying to lose weight can struggle through a weekly exercise class despit not liking it but can't forever lay off sugar.

At least that has been my experience of life!

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 10:04

FlyingOink it's interesting you assume this sex is bad and not just that sex, for some, is boring.

I think the reality for some is not that sex is just quite boring. It doesn't necessarily mean it's somehow done wrongly. It's just not worth the effort. You can have an orgasm and still think It's not worth the effort.

Italiangreyhound · 23/04/2020 09:58

"Why do you dispute what you think people mean instead of what they said. I am completely mystified by this behavior pattern." I am mystified by your comment. I'm Happy to engage but I don't k is what you mean and since I made this comment on this thread I'm not sure it's a pattern of behaviour.

MimiLaRue · 23/04/2020 09:25

@LindaSmithfanclub

Are you the OP, posting under two different names?