Male desire/ sexual rights

There's too big a discrepancy between straight women and lesbian women in that study for this to be entirely down to the above. Women who have sex with women have all the above issues.

I don't understand what you are getting at here? I would be surprised if lesbian women didn't have those issues. I don't think those things are about who people have sex with.

But all men are physiologically men, why do some care about how their partner experiences sex and others don't? It's a decision, surely. To prioritise themselves over their partner. Some men take pride in being good lovers.

Some are jerks, and some aren't. Possibly also some are more mature than others.
I think the same is true of women. But because more women are less enthusiastic about sex, maybe fewer engage in sex for selfish reasons.

I'll give you an example, totally fake but maybe clearer -

Say we have 20 men and 20 women. 15 in each group are nice people who are not going to be selfish lovers. But 19 of the men find sexual satisfaction (as opposed to emotional etc) fairly easy. four or five of them might be selfish about sex.

Now, maybe only 12 of the women find sex easy pleasure, and there are eight who are just blase. Those eight might get other things they consider worthwhile about sex, like pleasing a partner or intimacy. But if they are one of the five selfish people, they might not be inclined to go for selfish sex since there won't be much in it for them. So maybe the five selfish women would all be the same ones who like sex, but it could also be they are all the ones who don't. And if you are talking about thousands of people, you will start to see a gap.

Obviously it's more complicated than that, as there can be other reasons than sexual pleasure for selfish sex, among other things. But I hope that illustrates what I'm trying to get at.

TehBewilderness
Ah no worries

FlyingOink

No, it was in response to a comment on the previous page. I got distracted and didn't refresh before I posted. Sorry.

Whether it's lack of experience, some effect from childbirth or ageing, being unable to relax or being self conscious, or just lower libido, whatever.
There's too big a discrepancy between straight women and lesbian women in that study for this to be entirely down to the above. Women who have sex with women have all the above issues.

I tend to think that reflects their physiological experience of sex rather than their character, though.
But all men are physiologically men, why do some care about how their partner experiences sex and others don't? It's a decision, surely. To prioritise themselves over their partner. Some men take pride in being good lovers.

Not necessarily, no. But one would hope that most people would want to please their sexual partner. There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split? I think it's unlikely.

I don't know if it's 50:50, I suspect it's probably weighted somewhat toward men. I tend to think that reflects their physiological experience of sex rather than their character, though.

Most people want to enjoy sex, and want their partner to as well. Women though seem more likely to have problems with the former, even if they are with a partner who makes an effort. Whether it's lack of experience, some effect from childbirth or ageing, being unable to relax or being self conscious, or just lower libido, whatever. So for women in that situation, motivations other than an orgasm might be more prominent, like making their partner happy, intimacy, feeling attractive, etc. Maybe they are less likely to seek out selfish sex even if they are selfish people since direct sexual pleasure is less motivating for them.

Most men on the other hand are even in somewhat adverse circumstances to have an orgasm, and that can be pretty motivating even without things like pleasing a partner or intimacy or feeling affirmed. So transactional sex is maybe more appealing even if it isn't the best sex possible for that person.

I'd also say though that people I know who are into transactional sex and hook ups seem to think about it in a different way - both the men and women seem to see each person as mainly responsible for their own experience. They expect themselves to give a good performance, do things that are requested within reason, and be technically proficient. But if the other person doesn't enjoy it for some reason, they see that as being a problem for the other person- they can always stop having that kind of sex if it's not satisfying to them.

It's rather ugly but there is a cold sort of logic to it.

A lot of the time it is men just wanting to get it off, regardless of what the woman is thinking.She could be really into it,she enjoys it, she loves him,she could have instigated it, sometimes she's not be bothered, but she will be ok with it, and let's just get it over with it.
A lot of the time the finish is well, him finishing.

I'm not sure how this is meant to follow from what I said, really? It seems to be talking about something different.

TehBewilderness
I'm confused, is that for me? I'm not demonising straight men, I'm just pointing out that they are different.
Some of them might be demonic but NAMALT etc.

If 95% of straight men orgasm every time and only 65% of straight women do, you don't have to be Carol Vorderman to see there's a gap.
So assuming the majority of sexual encounters are the kind of everyday sex married and cohabiting couples have (as they have sex way more often than single people), and allowing for the fact casual sex is less likely to result in orgasm for straight women than sex with a regular partner, there is still a gap in married sex whereby men are having more orgasms.

If your argument is that orgasms don't matter, then that's your personal opinion and you can't argue they wouldn't matter for all those women who aren't having them.
Surely intimate loving sex WITH is better than intimate loving sex WITHOUT?

"The false dilemma fallacy is often a manipulative tool designed to polarize the audience, heroicizing one side and demonizing the other. It’s common in political discourse as a way of strong-arming the public into supporting controversial legislation or policies."

Well, seeing as you think a man's enjoyment is pretty much guaranteed from the most basic sex then surely it's actually men putting in more effort for their female partners than the other way round?

Studies suggest otherwise. www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/heterosexual-women-orgasm-sex-less-other-demographics-lgbt-lesbian-gay-study-chapman-indiana-a7595181.html

Why use such sweeping generalisations?

I didn't, it was the "too long;didn't read" summary of the link.

Also, slightly off-topic, I remember reading a series of excerpts taken from reviews of prostitutes on punternet and some Canadian sites that are similar.
There was a recurring theme, some men wanted the women to enjoy or pretend to enjoy the sex, whilst others got off on the idea that they were having sex with a woman who found them repulsive and would never have sex with them in any other circumstance.
I think this latter mindset is repugnant, and it's behind a lot of the more violent porn our there, but I also think there are vanishingly few straight women who would have sex with men in a coercive environment and get off on the idea that they were getting to fuck someone who wouldn't otherwise go near them. So I think women like to think their partner finds them attractive at minimum, whereas there is a percentage of men who require submission and nothing else, and a subsection of that percentage who prefer the idea of violating women who they know don't find them attractive.

Like I said, it's off-topic but it's a demonstration of the difference between male and female sexuality at the furthest ends of what one would assume are overlapping curves.

Men report bad sex as being boring, women report bad sex as being painful.

Why use such sweeping generalisations? It doesn't have to be painful for sex to just not be doing it for you and, when I was a nurse working in male urology, I treated a lot of men with sex related injuries. I think they would disagree with you that it wasn't painful.

If a man didn't find sex pleasurable would you say the fault lay with his partner?

There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split?

Well, seeing as you think a man's enjoyment is pretty much guaranteed from the most basic sex then surely it's actually men putting in more effort for their female partners than the other way round?

If a man complained that he wasn't enjoying sex, or that his needs weren't met, would you say that it was his partner at fault?
Men and women are different, and have different physiology.
If we describe having needs met as having an orgasm (for the sake of argument) then it is physiologically easier for a man to have those needs met.

There are exceptions to every rule, of course.
This is interesting: theweek.com/articles/749978/female-price-male-pleasure
Tl;Dr: Men report bad sex as being boring, women report bad sex as being painful.

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off, and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying.

Not necessarily, no. But one would hope that most people would want to please their sexual partner. There are some people who don't care if their partner enjoys themselves at all, so long as they continue to make themselves sexually available. Of this group of people, do you believe it's a 50:50 male/female split? I think it's unlikely.

None of the behaviours listed in the original comment are consistently found in one sex in different cultures or throughout time, so can't be used as evidence of an innate sex based difference.

Until you can remove the effects of socialisation and have a control group, you cannot assert that X behaviour is the effect of nature.

@Thelnebriati This isn't evidence of an innate difference between male and female sexual desire; but it is evidence of the effects of socialisation.
There are two un-evidenced assertions here-whether there is an innate difference-and the effects of socialisation.

Briefly looking at the scientific literature there appears to be quite a few papers describing male female differences in arousal and desire in the direction of women losing it faster than men. It seems to me if it were innate biological differences the effect would be similar in all societies-if the differences were the result of socialisation it would be different in different societies.
Of course there is an interaction between genes and environment. But to claim baldly “it is the result of socialisation” may be stretching evidence too far.

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into?

Would I blame him? I would blame him.for.his part in it. I would also be responsible though for not speaking up and saying that what I wasn't enjoying what he was doing or saying what it was that I did want and if I let that situation happen repeatedly without speaking up then yes, that would be my fault ( of course, I'm not including situations where the woman is in danger).

You might be fortunate enough to be so enamored by your partner that any hamfisted rutting will get you off

Well, no. That's my point. I wouldn't put up with ham fisted rutting as you so delightfully put it.

If a man complained that he wasn't enjoying sex, or that his needs weren't met, would you say that it was his partner at fault? We wouldn't would we? We wouldn't blame the partner of a man who wasn't enjoying satisfying sex, we would blame the.man for not saying something.

Goosefoot

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying*

A lot of the time it is men just wanting to get it off, regardless of what the woman is thinking.She could be really into it,she enjoys it, she loves him,she could have instigated it, sometimes she's not be bothered, but she will be ok with it, and let's just get it over with it.
A lot of the time the finish is well, him finishing.

It's interesting that the sex is rated (here) in terms of being good or not. This may well be an issue for anyone but I would think part of it is to do with when you are younger and/or with a new partner etc. Bad sex might be all about 'performance', and good sex might be all about that too.

But in a long term, committed relationship I do think sex is sometimes about so much more.

Connection and re-connection, love, even feelings of ownership in the sense that (assuming no one is having an affair) 'I'm the only one who gets to get this close to him/her' (not in a creepy way!).

When you balance all this and performance into the pot I think sex can be both good and bad, 'performance-rated-well, or poor, consensual and yet also not necessarily something one partner would initiate. And perhaps something one or other partner could have a string of reasons not to want to engage in while also still not being just about performance and not about actually being repulsed by either!

Does that make any sense!

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into?

There is a huge difference between this and someone saying that they aren't sure their spouse likes sex as much as they do.

I sometimes get the impression that people here think the only pure motivation for sex is wanting to get off, and it has to be completely even in terms of how invested each individual is. Otherwise it's somehow exploitative or objectifying.

If that's what's required for a loving relationship, none can exist.

No one talks about other kinds of relationships in a similar way - we all know that there is all kind of give and take and inequalities and differences. These don't necessarily detract from the relationship, often quite the opposite.

The letter writer doesn't say if the wife stopped having sex with them after finding out about the affairs he had.
I would not have sex with a man after finding out he was having sex with others, purely out of health care self defense. I would also get checked for STDs/

FlyingOink I love the spreadsheet!!!!

Who is responsible for making the sex great though? The idea I'm getting from some posters is that they see it as the man's job to provide great sex - apologies if I've misunderstood. For me, if the sex isn't great then that's a fault of both people involved.

You're quite right, this man's wife should have taken responsibility for her own pleasure, and the fact he's a selfish and entitled lover is neither here nor there.

To answer your question, nobody is "responsible" for making sex great, but ideally both parties should be aiming to please or satisfy the other. There's no choreographer or director and marks are not awarded for style and technique.

Also you wouldn't blame your male partner if he used your body to masturbate into? I mean, let's be honest, we are likely talking about the use of the poor wife for his sexual relief rather than mutual exploration and enjoyment. If your partner started using you in ways that suited him but did little for you, would you blame yourself? If I had a partner who did that I'd obviously try to discuss it, but I'd be upset that I'd suddenly been relegated to a toy and that my partner seemingly cared little for my feelings or pleasure.

You might be fortunate enough to be so enamored by your partner that any hamfisted rutting will get you off (and there's a lot to be said for actual romantic love as an aphrodisiac) but generally in a long relationship the rose tinted specs fall off and you're stuck bickering about the washing up. So some attempt at seduction or foreplay or whatever floats your boat is often welcomed.

I can't speak for all women and I can't speak for any straight women but being confident enough to tell someone they need to do something different to please you is nerve-wracking. No matter how the subject is broached, verbally or non-verbally, you run the risk of tears, insecurity, anger, violence, sexual assault, whatever. So much self-esteem can be wrapped up in sexual attractiveness and performance.

Whereas the cultural expectation is that women please men, and men don't seem to have any problem with trying to get their female partners to do what they like. Of course it must happen that a man is unable to explain to a woman that she's not doing it right, but men fake orgasms less often.

Also, as I've mentioned earlier, we can't know that the letter writer's wife didn't try all sorts of things sexually. She might be shagging the neighbour. We will never know. We can't hold her responsible for his assumption that she never enjoyed sex much.

If you've just had great sex but you're thinking you would rather have spent the time doing something else then either the sex wasn't that great or the something else is amazing.

Who is responsible for making the sex great though? The idea I'm getting from some posters is that they see it as the man's job to provide great sex - apologies if I've misunderstood. For me, if the sex isn't great then that's a fault of both people involved. I don't think one partner bears the responsibility of providing the great sex. I certainly wouldn't be accepting responsibility if my male partner claimed it hadn't been great for him, so I don't expect to blame him if it wasn't great for me.

I don't think female virginity these days is put on a pedestal, it's only seen in a slightly less mocking way than male virginity.

Their attitude appeared to be that they had a right to this relationship (in the sense that it was entirely their former partner's fault for ending things with them). I didn't explore the issue because I still had to work with them and I'm gifted at unwittingly annoying people.However, I find it a fascinating discussion because I see both desires as equally valid but would like to understand the rationale behind this one.

Marriage has traditionally been seen as permanent, with divorce, if it was allowed, as a remedy for extreme problems. That still informs many people's view - marriage vows often reflect that for instance.