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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When, oh when, will the tide turn?

169 replies

IchbineinBerlinner · 18/04/2020 10:39

I've been waiting and waiting for people to wake up to trans ideology. I've had complaints against my work. I've been blacklisted by organisations I used to work with. This is all coming to a head for me professionally speaking and I am so tired of waiting for people to understand what is going on. I have a tendency to be over-positive, so I'd like to hear Mumsnet's views: am I mad to think that this madness will stop soon?

OP posts:
RedDogsBeg · 21/04/2020 17:02

For gods’ sake. We have just been talking about reports of male people raping in women’s prisons and yet we are the ones who lack humanity eh emerjeane?

On your right to exist point emerjeane, if anyone is being denied that right it is adult human females and juvenile human females, commonly known as women and girls.

Do come back when you are capable of an intelligent and informed discussion and debate, the hectoring finger wagging won't wash.

Lordfrontpaw · 21/04/2020 16:07

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what kind of kids eat Armour (screen bait) hot dogs?
Fat kids, skinny kids,
kids that climb on rocks
tough kids, sissy kids
even kids with chicken pox
love (screen bait) hot dogs, Armour (screen bait) hot dogs
the dogs kids love to bite

BringbackLang · 21/04/2020 16:02

Someone's existence is not up for debate.

How can they someone not exist when they are physically there. Perhaps you were talking about ghosts or something. Or validation.

ChattyLion · 21/04/2020 16:01

For gods’ sake. We have just been talking about reports of male people raping in women’s prisons

R0wantrees · 21/04/2020 16:00

Brand new to mumsnet just today. Saw the title of this thread and thought - given that it's in the 'feminist' topic section - that it would be about women's rights.

Many people new to the issues discussed & the consequent impact on Safeguarding & women's sex-based rights have found these threads useful:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

Winesalot · 21/04/2020 15:57

Saw the title of this thread and thought - given that it's in the 'feminist' topic section - that it would be about women's rights. It really is about women's rights and preventing these being eroded.

Sadly it is a narrow minded and ill informed thread about 'trans ideology' or something daft and made up like that. Someone's right to exist should not be up for debate. Get informed and come back when you've got some more humanity people.

I have really not seen any posts saying that anyone should not exist. Rather, that everyone has a right to exist, however a group of people should not have any rights that take established and hard fought rights away from others.

As a place to start, do you agree that people born as males and who have gone through male puberty and therefore have the biological advantages of larger lungs, heart and musculature should compete against women. By competing against women, they deprive women of opportunities such as scholarships leading to education, medals and job opportunities.

If you think that male born people should compete against females, why? Apart from it will hurt their mental health?

Or have you come on to wokescold us?

HorseRadishFemish · 21/04/2020 15:50

I have been won over by emerjeanne's well argued points and now think that all little girls should be dressed from head to toe in pink. And am now going to go online and get some blue hair dye.

Lordfrontpaw · 21/04/2020 15:44

The whole 'denying the right to exist' mantra is utter nonsense. No one says that. The only 'enjoy your erasure' has - in fact - been directed towards women.

Pro women's rights aren't anti-trans rights. Maybe you need to get informed before launching into a finger-wagging.

Winesalot · 21/04/2020 15:42

I do think that this Lesbian Visibility week will shine the light on just where 'be kind' has meant shutting down debate. The twitter verse has an abundance of 'lesbians have penises too and if you don't accept these penises as a lesbian, you are unkind transphobes'.

emerjeanne · 21/04/2020 15:36

Brand new to mumsnet just today. Saw the title of this thread and thought - given that it's in the 'feminist' topic section - that it would be about women's rights. Sadly it is a narrow minded and ill informed thread about 'trans ideology' or something daft and made up like that. Someone's right to exist should not be up for debate. Get informed and come back when you've got some more humanity people.

R0wantrees · 21/04/2020 11:22

IchbineinBerlinner no I think Twitter is best for occasional reading (& in small doses!)

NonnyMouse1337 · 21/04/2020 10:54

Her application, lodged in the High Court by Birnberg Peirce, a civil rights law firm, on October 21, also challenges government policy on a unit for transgender women at HMP Downview, a women’s jail in Surrey."

I had been wondering what happened to this case since I haven't seen any updates on it. Is it still only in the stage of being lodged or has it progressed further? Does anyone know?

IchbineinBerlinner · 21/04/2020 10:14

Thanks @ROwantrees .. are you on Twitter? Iwonder do i follow you...

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 15:07

Women to sue the MOJ?

Yes also sufficient pressure on MPs so that they recognise there is public demand to scrutinise MoJ?

R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 15:04

3/11/19 Times by Nicholas Hellen

'Female prisoner takes government to court after alleged assault by transgender inmate'
(extract)
"A female prisoner who was allegedly sexually assaulted in jail by a male-bodied transgender inmate has launched a High Court action for a judicial review of government policy.

She says the transgender woman, who is serving a sentence for rape of a female, groped her breasts in the prison toilets. Shortly after the assault, the victim was moved to a different prison only to find her assailant had also moved there and would be sharing accommodation.

She is challenging the lawfulness of the government decision to place trans-women prisoners convicted of sexual and violent offences against women in women’s prisons without, it is claimed, adequately protecting female prisoners.

Her application, lodged in the High Court by Birnberg Peirce, a civil rights law firm, on October 21, also challenges government policy on a unit for transgender women at HMP Downview, a women’s jail in Surrey." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/female-prisoner-takes-government-to-court-after-alleged-assault-by-transgender-inmate-n5wtg2nf7

Aesopfable · 20/04/2020 14:59

Women to sue the MOJ?

R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 14:44

FGS what more needs to happen for it to be reversed?

Sufficient pressure to scrutinise/expose the gross Safeguarding failures by the State?

R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 14:42

But honestly, if a Minister is talking about male rapes taking place in women’s prisons because of MOJ policy, FGS what more needs to happen for it to be reversed?

Absolutely and notable that Rory Stewart is a former MP & Prisons Minister (9 January 2018 – 1 May 2019)

ChattyLion · 20/04/2020 14:34

R0wan that FOI outcome I hope will create more attention on this issue. But honestly, if a Minister is talking about male rapes taking place in women’s prisons because of MOJ policy, FGS what more needs to happen for it to be reversed?

R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 14:01

Agree that reversing regulatory capture is the key to reclaiming women’s spaces and opportunities and to safeguarding women and children.

To speed that reversal of capture and to make solid new gains for women and children, we will also need Parliament to act.

20/4/2020 Caroline ffiske for Conservative Woman:

'Trans takeover of the Justice Ministry'
(extract)
"ACCORDING to the Mail on Sunday, former Tory Cabinet Minister Rory Stewart has revealed that female prisoner officers have been raped by men housed in women’s prisons. These men were placed in the women’s prisons because they identify as female.

It had previously been reported that female prisoners and officershad been sexually assaulted by male ‘trans’ prisoners, but this was the first reference to rape. Perhaps Stewart has mis-spoken, mis-remembered, or been misquoted. I hope he or the Mail on Sunday will clarify. I have put in a Freedom of Information request to try to find out more.

According to the Mail on Sunday, ‘the Ministry of Justice recently said policies are in place to manage the risks that might be posed by male-bodied prisoners who say they are trans women’. Well might the Ministry wish to reassure us, following the debacle whereby rapist, paedophile, and biological and legal male ‘Karen White’ was housed in a women’s prison and proceeded to sexually assault women.

I decided to take a look at the ministry’s policy to see what it had learned since the White incident. Last updated this January, and titled ‘Care and Management entitled of Individuals who are Transgender’, you can read the whole thing here.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863610/transgender-pf.pdf

The policy ‘provides staff with clear direction in the support and safe management of transgender individuals in our care, including managing risks both to and from transgender individuals, and enabling risk to be managed when an individual is placed into a prison which is different from that of their legal gender or where a Gender Recognition Certification (GRC) has been obtained’.

Firstly, I’m concerned that the Ministry of Justice misunderstands science. The document says that biological sex is ‘assigned . . . at birth’. This is incorrect. Sex does not miraculously appear at birth or rely on an observer’s arbitrary decision. Sex is binary, written into our genetic code, and is determined at conception.

Actually, it is an under-statement to say that this movement away from science and into metaphysics is concerning. It is also a sign that the Ministry of Justice is suffering from policy capture. How did this notion of sex being ‘assigned at birth’ make it into a policy document – and why did no review process take it back out?

Secondly, I’m concerned that a document produced by our Ministry of Justicemisrepresents the law. It says: ‘Where individuals have gained legal recognition [of a change in gender], they must be treated in accordance with their legally recognised gender in every respect.’ [My italics] This isn’t so. The Equalities Act explicitly provides for single sex (not gender) services, spaces, roles, and activities when it is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim" (continues)

conservativewoman.co.uk/trans-takeover-of-the-justice-ministry/

conservativewoman.co.uk/trans-takeover-of-the-justice-ministry/

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 20/04/2020 13:55

Part of the problem with that is that some people aren't good. It isn't really possible to have any sort of adult conversation about ethics without acknowledging that.

Goosefoot · 20/04/2020 13:50

I have found that when I talk to people who take the "Be Kind" approach, often, they don't really understand the consequences that are involved. They also tend to be the sort of people who think that self-esteem comes through telling people they are good and being nice to them. They don't tend to understand how struggle can be healthy.

ChattyLion · 20/04/2020 13:34

Sorry that things are getting really difficult OP Flowers

Agree that reversing regulatory capture is the key to reclaiming women’s spaces and opportunities and to safeguarding women and children.

To speed that reversal of capture and to make solid new gains for women and children, we will also need Parliament to act.

This is around GRA reform but also to bring in new legal protections for children and young people. It seems that medical culture and current regulation isn’t sufficient to protect them at present as detransitioned people and whistleblowing staff have said.

So Parliament needs to have various select committee enquiries: on children and GIDS/insufficiency of CAMHS provision, on appropriate care and support for detransitioned people, on women’s sports, on prisons, on single sex public and workplace toilet provision, and many more issues.

These can gather evidence from as wide a range of views as possible, then with well-informed MPs, government can be encouraged to take up the committees’ report recommendations. Then we need well-informed drafting and debate in the Commons and the Lords towards statutory amendments or making new statute.

Court cases are key of course and can be used to force governments to draft new laws in reaction, especially if they get to European level, but that progress through the courts can take years.

My worry is that the pandemic and economic recovery and Brexit will understandably take up a lot of Parliamentary time (next ten years?) so none of this will get much time and the status quo will be normalised.

So we need to keep on writing to our MPs and ministers even if (like my MP) they don’t write back.

It’s not ideal if the GRA remains in force but with reforms outin the long grass for the very long term.

There are already creeping areas of GRA scope being argued to be ‘grey areas’ (like whether parents with GRCs should be able to use their own GRC-assigned legal sex status on their kids’ birth certificates, as in the case brought by Freddy McConnell who made the ‘Seahorse’ film about their pregnancy)

Also as Keira Bell has pointed out, there are basic problems with GRA that make it unworkable: there’s no legal revocation of a GRA once granted, unless through ‘fraud’ or in the case of fluctuating identity.

So the holding of a GRA then denies the possibility of detransitioned people regaining their birth legal sex, unless they say things which aren’t true for them in order to comply with GRA requirements. This is totally unacceptable and hopefully will be subject to legal challenge by someone at some point.

Another part of the reason for trying to keep Parliamentary interest towards reforms current, is that there is a majority government in place. This makes change of this kind much easier to achieve if the will is there, although to sustain any such change long term there must be cross party support.

Winesalot · 20/04/2020 12:14

R0wantrees Thanks for the link to SEGM. I am going to watch that space as they seem to be a breath of reality. One that crosses international boundaries and all the #bekind rhetoric.

R0wantrees · 20/04/2020 11:37

I'm all for being kind to women and girls

The lack of protection & respect for women's sex based rights & Safeguarding enabled transactivism to flourish unchecked. Its a consequence of systemic Safeguarding failure/failings & there are many others:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo