When, oh when, will the tide turn?

To be fair there were several posts and some attempt to state a position, where a lot of the plopped posts lately read more like an overexcited toddler running into a room of grown ups, shouting "bum!" and running away giggling.

Haven't read the full thread so don't know if this has already been posted, but this thread seemed an appropriate place to for it:

Goodbye woke liberals, hello dirtbag left

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ca126e16-83e3-11ea-a771-e3cbdc13ee70?shareToken=638775269061f6344f8efc588107f306

I think you're supposed to be educating yourself in how to believe obvious nonsense that lacks internal consistency. Sometimes I wonder if this involves massive quantities of booze and/or pharmaceuticals and that's why the people demanding it come across as so incoherent.

Just placemarking in case emerjeanne comes back later to continue the discussion.

emerjeanne - you talk about 'getting informed'. A few people have come here to tell us we're transphobic but can never seem to explain what we're saying that is transphobic.

I was on another thread the other day where someone said that saying that people can't change sex wasn't transphobic but saying that males can't become females was transphobic? Do you agree with that? (If so, can you make sense of it for me, because I'm totally lost)

It would be nice to get a clear answer to that question, as we never got a clarification if that's what the poster actually meant, and at least one other person on that thread didn't come back to answer the question.

It's almost like phrases such as 'get informed' and 'educate yourself' really mean 'shut up and do as I say'. I'm sure that's not the case here though.

Not political my arse - why are three men, one of whom is a politician discussing what it is to be a woman?

A woman is an adult human female, a woman has two XX chromosomes, no amount of surgery or hormones can change that biological, scientific fact.

A man is an adult human male, a man has one X and one Y chromosome, no amount of surgery or hormones can change that biological, scientific fact.

Do not come back citing people of both sexes who have DSD's, these are not a 'gotcha' they are males or females with DSD's, not trans, they still fall into one of two sex categories and are not evidence of sex being fluid or any other such nonsense and people with DSD's have specifically and repeatedly asked not to be used as pawns in this ideology, extend your humanity and respect and abide by what they have asked.

Gender dysphoria (don't like the medicalised term but you know what I'm referring to) exists in individuals and ALWAYS has. It is a natural part of humankind. Do you not accept this?

That some some people experience considerable distress & that this has come to be described as 'gender dysphoria'?

BMJ
Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles#82215722

"no political driving force"

Follow the money, always follow the money.

Who is funding medical research (and how much is in it for them?), who is giving money to lobby groups, why are 'charities' merely lobby groups getting £££ from large corporations (who would never stick their hands in their pockets to fund, say, a rape centre or child trauma group)? Why are people intent on shutting down any debate and hurl abuse at anyone who questions?

Can't you see the anti-women sentiment?

I have a teenager - he and his classmates aren’t swallowing it.

Same here and I work with teenagers, a considerable number of them aren't having it. It surprised but pleased me that this was the case.

Many heavy pornography users who have developed fetishes around being seen as female are now identifying as trans - including many younger men.There are a lot of, seemingly, woman hating trans identified males out there - who rely on sexist stereotypes when declaring themselves women - and being abusive towards women who call them out. Do we want these people in our spaces. No, we don't

I contribute to one other forum. A almost totally male populated one.
It is mainly about architecture and urbanism, but there are chat sub forums within it......which I sometimes look at.

There are a number of young trans identifying individuals ( MtoF)...as well as a particularly large population of gay men. As a lone female, over the years, it has been tough at times....due to pervy behaviour, stalking, outright misogyny and sexism....but not all men are like that, and I have developed a few friendships too.

However, on the topic of transgenderism there is a real, nasty little nub of, mainly, young gay men who display shocking and astonishing anti-woman feeling and sentiment.........they never give women or girls one moment of thought when discussing their spaces and sports...and You just get called a 'transphobe' or a 'bigot' when standing up for women's rights and needs.

Given that most of these people identify themselves as progressives, or lefties, that does seem more than a little galling - especially when you yourself have spent a life time campaigning and speaking out on such issues.

Amongst this number of young men is one particular individual who i know 'came out' as trans a year or two ago. He is heterosexual, but very feminine looking...

I know he is a heavy pornography user because I've looked in on chats between this person & people on this topic. Many of them seem fine with 'breath play' as they call it ( Choking - in other words) or virtually anything that they consider to be the free choice of the individual taking part. Anyone who disagrees is a repressed prude.

This individual also talks about the number of 'porn stars' and 'prossies' ( prostitutes) that he knows......and talks about how when dressed as a woman he gets less flak ( from other men) than when just presenting as himself ( male)........and that this was part of the motivation behind his transition.

My feeling is that this is a young person consumed by an on-line world of gaming, chat rooms, pornography......and has been drawn into 'being trans'; as a result of all of that. This is how and why a dominant culture can come to take over one's life and shape it in certain ways.

That's where humanity comes in. Someone transitioning does NOT actually take away someone else's rights

You don't have the monopoly on humanity.

It is easy to be a 'trans ally' when all you have to do is wave around a rainbow flag, or wear a rainbow lanyard at work; or be nice and kind and progressive in sentiment.

See how you feel after a lifetime of having to actively struggle for rights and spaces and for equality of opportunity - as many here have done......

Instead of being an advocate for the forceful colonisation of the spaces and rights of another group, why don't you get out there and develop your own?

Yes there are trans people who are these things, but i would argue that 99.9% are NOT and so please try and be clear who and what you're objecting to and don't conflate the issues

The issues are already conflated whether you like it or not - because of the fact that self ID would permit anyone who identifies as trans into female spaces , services and sports. In prisons alone, many violent sex offenders and paedophiles are now identifying as 'trans'.

Many heavy pornography users who have developed fetishes around being seen as female are now identifying as trans - including many younger men.

There are a lot of, seemingly, woman hating trans identified males out there - who rely on sexist stereotypes when declaring themselves women - and being abusive towards women who call them out. Do we want these people in our spaces. No, we don't.

Why don't you campaign for third spaces?

So are you objecting to people transitioning OR the issues around safe spaces for women eg prisons etc? These are two very distinct issues. I agree with people having the right to transition - please don't make assumptions about my other views. (and be abusive about it). I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force

All of the above are issues.

As already mentioned, it is the ideology of transgenderism which is driving the movement, and the sheer numbers of people now identifying as 'trans'. It just didn't exist as it does now even 10 years ago.....(when I was teaching): it was just not a thing, or an issue that everybody had to be 'trained' to deal with. This, alone, suggests a social/cultural element and phenomena.

We know that lots of young people are caught up in this - as it becomes part of their cultural landscape, and is 'promoted' via social media and various political/campaigning organisations such as Stonewall and Mermaids ( in receipt of 'big money' funding from U.S organisations). Lots of nascent, young lesbians are now identifying as 'trans' and being subject to surgery and hormones. I've heard it said that there are"few lesbians around" in certain communities these days ( all identifying as 'trans' or non-binary).

There are mental health issues involved, which are no longer supposed to be explored. Girls going from anorexia to 'being trans', as one example. The trans medical establishment enables and supports this in the guise of 'positive affirmation'.

Children are being told that they can " choose their gender", that, "girls aren't real"....planting 'trans' seeds in children's minds. This is all ideology.

Male bodied people are being permitted access to private female spaces and services, which were designed to allow women the comfort, dignity and privacy of their sex. They are competing in female sports - taking away medals, destroying achievements, and hijacking sponsorships designed for women and girls. This is clearly unfair.

To suggest that being woman is just a 'feeling' in someone's head is deeply offensive to many. And furthermore it relies on sexist stereotypes of the kind that the women's movement has been seeking to escape from. Plus many 'trans' individuals are now men with AGP - for whom being seen as a woman is a sexual fetish.

Women do not want men or male bodies people in their intimate and safe spaces, or in their sports - for very good reasons. all of them valid.

What is it that you really don't understand about any of that?

In fact, just keep deriding us emerjeanne. Because each time you do, someone else who has been lurking here (like I used to) will get piqued to the point of starting to post regularly just to quiet their own cognitive dissonance.

Obviously, it takes someone in very deep denial to not at least see that there are issues that the legislators need to sort out or someone who has their own agenda completely. Again. Please come back with some robust studies (not debunked) and stats to prove your intuitive need that there is no damage being done to women’s rights.

As I mentioned, Lesbian visibility week is an easy place to start. Why can women no longer define their own sexuality to exclude penises? Seriously? Do you think this is just happening on twitter and not in real life?

emerjeanne if you were after handy screenshots of those nasty transphobic mumsnetters you will have been disappointed. Just lots of polite disagreement and sharing of deep knowledge and expertise about the subject.

I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force.

How do you explain this document then?

www.iglyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/IGLYO_v3-1.pdf

It's full of stuff like this:

7. Tie your campaign to more popular reform
In Ireland, Denmark and Norway, changes to the law on legal gender recognition were put through at the same time as other more popular reforms such as marriage equality legislation. This provided a veil of protection, particularly in Ireland, where marriage equality was strongly supported, but gender identity remained a more difficult issue to win public support for.

9. Carpe diem
It is really important for NGO activists to seize the moment when promoting legal gender recognition. Activists need to quickly capitalise on political momentum.

emerjeanne If you won’t listen to other females saying that declaring Tw are women, how about you listen to Rose.

I haven’t listened to many of her videos but the ones I have seem to probably be along the line of who you are supporting (and who many on the board will support). Even Rose picks up on the erasure of both ‘men’ and ‘women’ here. It doesn’t take much to extend that out to the areas others have tried to point you to on this thread.

Or maybe Rose is a transphobe too? Is that what you are saying?

Given that the medical blueprint for transitioning requires those transitioning to "live as" the sex they wish they were, including using that sex's sex segregated spaces, then individuals transitioning absolutely does impinge on the rights of others.

emerjeane I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force.

It is absolutely clear that there is a Trans ideology and it is a political driving force.

That's where humanity comes in. Someone transitioning does NOT actually take away someone else's rights... It's the other stuff (safe spaces etc) that is at issue. Object to all that by all means, just don't conflate the two and stir up hatred in the process. Your prejudice is showing.

Taking away safe spaces that are segregated on the basis of sex is taking away the rights of those who need and want those sex segregated spaces. Stopping that happening is not hatred or prejudice.

And just to add, that is why I was sad to see it on the 'feminist' board. By all means debate the legislative stuff in relation to women's rights but trans issues are not inherently anti-women.

That is exactly what we are and have been discussing, and just to reiterate trans ideology is inherently anti-women, if you cannot see that then you are wilfully blind to it or just as anti-women as the ideology.

Couple of questions for you emerjeane:

What do you mean when you trot out the trite right to exist phrase, exist as what?

What rights do trans people not have that everyone else does?

Emerjeanne, my teenage daughter has a male classmate who is trans and a female classmate who has been raped.

So your view that males claiming to be female never impinges on the rights of the actual girls is just bollocks.

You are asking a traumatised girl to pretend that she can’t tell the difference between a male student and a female one in the girls’ loos and changing areas — or to avoid the girls’ facilities entirely.

She’s unlikely to be the only one. Why do we expect these leaps and extremes of ‘kindliness’ from girls and women, instead of educating the boys that it’s not something they can or should expect, for very sound reasons?

emerjeanne - a ‘newbie’ to mumsnet.

Yeah right. We’re not idiots.

It's frankly bizarre to claim there is no political driving force.

I object to the idea of 'trans ideology' because that assumes a political driving force.

Then you're woefully under informed. That's precisely what it is.

underneath all that there are thousands of ordinary good trans people who want to live a normal life

Look around on this board. Look on Twitter. Look how this political driving force treats trans people who say 'hang on a minute' or say they have other needs and views, or don't believe that they can be trans while remaining their own biological sex because sex is a reality, or that women matter too, or God forbid, say they want to detransition? They are viciously attacked. Go and look at the articles by Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley and other transsexual people sharing their experience which conflicts with this political movement. The most recent example on the boards here of a non trans 'ally' who regularly posts to defend this political decision was of them going for a long term trans MNetter with a shocking nastiness they'd never unleashed on GC women. They did everything but call them an 'Uncle Tom'.

They do not care about all trans people by any means, they certainly don't represent all trans people, and the figure heads of this political lobby - who are the ones talking directly to government select committees, delivering training, running the political lobby groups, leading social media (and actual physical threatening and assault of females daring to discuss their rights in public) - are a political male supremacism movement.

For goodness sake do some reading and thinking, you've got a nice sympathetic view point there but you're missing one hell of a lot of the facts. I care about all people, regardless of their political affiliations, and won't sign up to anything that places them in a hierarchy of superiority, nor believes that denying people rights, and treating them abusively, is fine if they don't obey your exact political views.

It’s odd that people who say ‘of course a trans woman should be in women’s jails/ wards/ changing rooms’ on the basis of them being ‘no different’, don’t have the same ideas about trans men in male estates because - wait for it - they are different (physically generally weaker, smaller etc) and potentially at risk from males.

Under stonewall law if tomorrow my 40 something DH suddenly decides to identify a woman and wear women’s clothes he is as much a woman as I am and always has been.

Any sport he excels at what be recorded as a woman, any crime report he’d be listed as a woman, he could compete with me to get on schemes designed to improve the representation of women and If he beat me he’d be there as a woman. Oh and I would suddenly be redefined as a lesbian because I’m in a relationship with a woman

Now tell us again why self ID is no threat to women

Transwomen are men. They commit crimes at the same rate as other men.